General Discussion

If anyone thinks that their subscription fee gives them the 'right' to be competative without putting in any effort or developing any skills, I'd suggest that they look at Item Mall games.  There they can buy their way to uber-l33t skills with their credit card, and leave real MMOs to people who don't mind learning the reasonably simple mechanics of the game. 

Originally posted by Ravanos

Hardcore raiders are elitist? nah .... PVPers? no way how about the hardcore grouper? nah they all take a back seat to the Soloer in the Elitist level.

you heard the phrase "raid or die" well now the new battlecry is "SOLO or die!".

Ask any hardcore raider or grouper and most will tell you they don't mind the soloer, that they should have content geared toward them they don't have a problem with people wanting to solo. Ask a soloer about raiders or hardcore groupers? and you will hear things like "raiding sucks its done by no life losers" "endgames shouldn't be about raiding".

Post a topic about Solo content and most are willing to acknowledge a need for it. Post a topic about grouping viablity and you will get post saying "grouping doesn't need to be boosted you can kill faster than us soloers". Post about raid content and you will most likely get "I pay just as much as the raider I as a soloer shouldn't be excluded from content".

oh they will cry about how the game isn't fair to thier playstyle, how game should cater to them as well but the reality is that games ARE ONLY catering to thier playstyle and they still aren't happy. they still whine and complain anytime a new group oriented dungeon comes out, they whine and complain anytime a new raid zone comes out.  when really you never EVER hear a hardcore raider/grouper complain about new solo quests coming out.

Its all about the soloer all the time and its sad that more and more games are listening to these elitists

Completely agree with you

I respect people who prefer to solo, or as some consider them formally known as "casual" players.

But leave content for the rest of us who aren't soloers.

Originally posted by Ravanos

effort vs reward ... thats why the color tier system is put in there. if you only solo you ONLY need green armor. also subscription fees allow you access of the server ... nothing more. its what you do while in game that determines what gear you can access ... not subscription fee.

 

Bullshit.  Old UO took a ton of effort, but didn't mandate you had to sit at your computer for hours straight.  Sure getting to 7x gm would take the casual person a hell of a lot longer to get but it was still possible.  Or getting those vanq weapons or fort (?) armor would take a lot longer then the person that farmed the upper tier mobs for hours straight but it was still possible.

i dont know if this has been mentioned, and since i am too lazy to go through all the posts, then i will say it regardless.

One game to look at for this is CoX, the way the bump up the dificulty and drop rates for grouped missions as opposed to solo missions.  would i accept weaker gear to solo a raid dungoen?  hell yeah i would.  as a solo player i would be willing to accept weaker gear, or lower drop rates to not have to wait around and go through the pain of getting 20+ people to get together and work as  a team.  this option seems like a vialbe solution to both sides, but thats just my opinion, whch amounts to almost nothing.

Originally posted by Ravanos

why is that wrong? to do anything competitve people have to put in extra effort, this goes for jobs, sports and yes even video games. so yes if you want to be competitive in PVP you might have to take extra steps in order to be successful.

why should the soloer get extra special treatement over someone who participate in all three components of endgame content (Soloing, Grouping and Raiding)?

you're proving the elitist attitude of the soloer with these type of statements.

Solo players put as much effort into playing the game as raiders. The only difference is they channel that effort into different things.

No one should get special treatment. Everyone should be able to play how they like and have a rewarding experience.

And usually solo mobs are pretty much your basic dumb ai mobs. doing nothing special except auto attack and a special attack or two. Really if you die to a solo mob maybe your just bad at the game. the only time i have ever died to a solo mob is if i was distracted(because i was bored with the lack of challenge) or lag.

Raid mobs are also your basic dumb AI. The only difference is that their HP and damage has been raised. Raid bosses are mostly scripted events which a trained monkey can do given enough practice.

What I'm talking about though is doing group content solo. It's possible for some quests/mobs. It is hard and the player has to be on the bounce.

not really ... usually the other people that follow the organizers have to gain gear, learn how to play thier character to the optimum performance whether it be dps, healing or tanking. gaining this gear to raid can take lots of effort.

Or they can just go to wowdb.com or wowhead.com or allakhazam.com or thottbot.com or hundreds of other websites that list the strategies, optimal builds and raid make up, skill/spell rotations and gear for any particular boss/raid/quest/class.

effort vs reward ... thats why the color tier system is put in there. if you only solo you ONLY need green armor. also subscription fees allow you access of the server ... nothing more. its what you do while in game that determines what gear you can access ... not subscription fee.

That would work but only if solo and raid players did not interact with each other. They do in PvP. In limiting the best gear to raiders only, you're ensuring that solo players will never be able to compete in PvP, which is completely different ball game from raids. That's why I liked what Blizzard did with PvP gear and PvE raid gear.

As another person said, look at old school UO. The game took great effort but all play styles were viable and rewarding.

Also, the fee to access the server pays for development and maintenance of the game and all things related. Therefore, the $15 that I pay, goes towards developing new content for you, which I never experience because I don't have the 3+ hours to listen to heavy breathing over vent.
 

Originally posted by heartless

You're talking about a service which users pay the same amount of money for. In that light, both should have equal rights and access. If both the neurosurgeon and the McDonald's fries guy buy the same cell phone plan for $99 per month, does AT&T provide better service for the neurosurgeon because he makes more money? No they do not. They both have the same service and equal access to the same content. If raiders payed more money for raid content that gave them better gear, I would have no problems. But they don't.

Here is where your logic falls apart.

 Both the raider, and the solo'er pay the same... and they are given the exact same opportunity.

Therefore there is no problem. The discrepancy in what gear they have access to is simply a matter of how they choose, or are able to play the game.

The person with the best gear either was A) very lucky, B) Bought it on-line somewhere or C) earned it by putting in a lot of time

You can't really argue that any of those 3 is unfair... just like I can't complain about my friend who just bought a million dollar home... but who busted his ass getting an MBA and regularly works 12 hour days... while I go home after 8 hours, almost without fail.

We both had the same opportunity in life. Monetary (loot) rewards, come with effort.

Originally posted by Aetherial

Originally posted by heartless

You're talking about a service which users pay the same amount of money for. In that light, both should have equal rights and access. If both the neurosurgeon and the McDonald's fries guy buy the same cell phone plan for $99 per month, does AT&T provide better service for the neurosurgeon because he makes more money? No they do not. They both have the same service and equal access to the same content. If raiders payed more money for raid content that gave them better gear, I would have no problems. But they don't.

 

Here is where your logic falls apart.

 Both the raider, and the solo'er pay the same... and they are given the exact same opportunity.

Therefore there is no problem. The discrepancy in what gear they have access to is simply a matter of how they choose, or are able to play the game.

The person with the best gear either was A) very lucky, B) Bought it on-line somewhere or C) earned it by putting in a lot of time

You can't really argue that any of those 3 is unfair... just like I can't complain about my friend who just bought a million dollar home... but who busted his ass getting an MBA and regularly works 12 hour days... while I go home after 8 hours, almost without fail.

We both had the same opportunity in life. Monetary (loot) rewards, come with effort.

 

Do you pay $15 per month to access life? Games are not life. They are an entertainment medium.

Originally posted by heartless

Do you pay $15 per month to access life? Games are not life. They are an entertainment medium.

Are you given less opportunity than a raider?

Have you been delivered less for your money?

No, you have not. Your game is exactly the same as his.

If he works longer and harder at the game, I am not talking about RL now... then he deserves more.

If your claim is that you, as a solo'er work just as long and hard... I respectfully, completely, disagree. I have played both styles. There is no comparison in the effort required.