General Discussion

Soloing/PvPing/Raiding in WoW is not the be-all, end-all of how things are, how they have been nor how they should be in MMOs. 

Originally posted by kdkirmse

 

By your argument then. If a soloer has spent more time and effort on getting gear then they should have superior gear.

Your opinion is that all raiding is easier then soloing. This is nonsense. The raid group doing a routine instance every couple of days to equip they whole raid group is working no harder than a similar number of soloist grinding / questing their gear over a similar time scale.

Just as there is easy and difficult raid content there should also be also be easy and difficult solo content with significant rewards when the harder content is completed in either case.

The biggest problem with solo content at the moment is that there is very little that is hard. In MMOs that are oriented toward an end game should have challenging solo content for those players that prefer that play style.

 

Here we go again with this crap about easy/difficult for solo'ers. Either you can kill something or you can't. Unless there is some homongous jump in the level of combat complexity, there is not a lot you can do to change that outcome... and if combat were that complex, you would lose the interest of most people over 20... I would rather think than twitch.

Raids, on the other hand, can be beaten, but the coordintion, right combination of classes, figuring out strategies, as well as sometimes near flawless execution of tactics is required by multiple people and sometimes takes months... or longer to figure out.

And you think you deserve the same reward for something that is soloable... even if it is *difficult*.

You have got to be kidding me with this arguement.

Originally posted by musicmann

 

The devlopers are the ones who made the rule that grouping and raiding equals more effort, in which i disagree with. Everyone that pays for a mmo should have the same opportunity to loot/content.

...

As well as somone that likes to or has no choice but to play solo. If i pay 15 bucks, i should be able to have access and be able to do and finish everthing that game offers, solo or grouped.

 

 

This is beyond stupid. The fact is that you know damn well that GOOD, grouping and raiding is a much more intensive effort than soloing.

A mob that takes more people to kill is tougher, and therefore has a better reward. This mechanic is simple.

you pay your 15 dollars for the same opportunity. Nobody is making you solo instead of raiding (ad nauseum). The fact that you choose to not do the big reward elements is YOUR problem, not the developers and not the community's.

Sheesh, go play Diablo II.

Originally posted by Aetherial

Originally posted by kdkirmse

 

By your argument then. If a soloer has spent more time and effort on getting gear then they should have superior gear.

Your opinion is that all raiding is easier then soloing. This is nonsense. The raid group doing a routine instance every couple of days to equip they whole raid group is working no harder than a similar number of soloist grinding / questing their gear over a similar time scale.

Just as there is easy and difficult raid content there should also be also be easy and difficult solo content with significant rewards when the harder content is completed in either case.

The biggest problem with solo content at the moment is that there is very little that is hard. In MMOs that are oriented toward an end game should have challenging solo content for those players that prefer that play style.

 

 

Here we go again with this crap about easy/difficult for solo'ers. Either you can kill something or you can't. Unless there is some homongous jump in the level of combat complexity, there is not a lot you can do to change that outcome... and if combat were that complex, you would lose the interest of most people over 20... I would rather think than twitch.

Raids, on the other hand, can be beaten, but the coordintion, right combination of classes, figuring out strategies, as well as sometimes near flawless execution of tactics is required by multiple people and sometimes takes months... or longer to figure out.

And you think you deserve the same reward for something that is soloable... even if it is *difficult*.

You have got to be kidding me with this arguement.

 

Since you have not actually countered the argument it still stands.

Very few raids remain hard for very long. Most raids follow the tank / heal / dps pattern with maybe an oddball change in tactics. Once the harder raids have been beaten often they become trivial as well. Far too often the difficulty of a raid depends on the gear of the participants not their actual skill. There are a few raids that require flawless execution but they hardly are a large fraction of the whole.

Originally posted by Vynt

Originally posted by musicmann

Originally posted by Aetherial

Originally posted by heartless

You're talking about a service which users pay the same amount of money for. In that light, both should have equal rights and access. If both the neurosurgeon and the McDonald's fries guy buy the same cell phone plan for $99 per month, does AT&T provide better service for the neurosurgeon because he makes more money? No they do not. They both have the same service and equal access to the same content. If raiders payed more money for raid content that gave them better gear, I would have no problems. But they don't.

 

Here is where your logic falls apart.

 Both the raider, and the solo'er pay the same... and they are given the exact same opportunity.

Therefore there is no problem. The discrepancy in what gear they have access to is simply a matter of how they choose, or are able to play the game.

The person with the best gear either was A) very lucky, B) Bought it on-line somewhere or C) earned it by putting in a lot of time

You can't really argue that any of those 3 is unfair... just like I can't complain about my friend who just bought a million dollar home... but who busted his ass getting an MBA and regularly works 12 hour days... while I go home after 8 hours, almost without fail.

We both had the same opportunity in life. Monetary (loot) rewards, come with effort.

 

 

The devlopers are the ones who made the rule that grouping and raiding equals more effort, in which i disagree with. Everyone that pays for a mmo should have the same opportunity to loot/content.

If there's someone that likes to solo, things should be made more difficult to do, but doable solo, with the end result being the same as if he had grouped up with 10 people.

There should be a scalable system in place for every mmo, that allows the toughness of content, be placed on how many are involved.

If i start playing an mmo and get a friend to join as well. Should we be penalized for wanting just the two of us in a group to expeirance all the content that particular mmo has to offer. Hell no we shouldn't.

As well as somone that likes to or has no choice but to play solo. If i pay 15 bucks, i should be able to have access and be able to do and finish everthing that game offers, solo or grouped.

 

 

 

If you put a scalable system in place to increase toughness based on how many there are, you would then need to increase the reward  for such toughness, otherwise there would be no point in grouping up to get the same item you can get solo.

Why should I make things harder for myself with 10 people to get the same item you can get easier solo or duo.  I don't understand why people think they should be entitled to the same thing as everyone else with less effort.

Do the people who think soloers should get the exact same items as raiders even have jobs? Should the guy working at a fast food place get the same amount of money who went to med school and works 12 hours a day? I just don't get it. People seem to have a false sense of entitlement. Just because everyone pays the same amount does not mean they are entitled to exactly the same thing. Should one person who does no crafting be a master crafter with everything available to make, while another has to painstakingly raise the skill and gather the recipes? The answer is obviously no.

Some people may not be max level yet, while many others are, but they should all be the same, even though the max level people put in more effort to get their, right? lol. This is the mindset people are taking. Mr. Casual plays 5 hours a week, and Mr. Raider plays 25-30 tackling tough content (even when the strategies are already known). Casual gets sword of mindless grinding and raider gets sword of decaptitating uberness. Damn, Casual wants decaptitating uberness, its not fair! I do so much less and kill very easily mobs but I should have the same thing!

I'm sorry, but this attitude is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Better rewards require greater effort. I'm no longer a hardcore raider in games, mostly casual now, and I can still equip myself fairly well with a little effort here and there. I would like to have some of the better stuff I see in big raids, but that is my choice. The funny thing is, it had nothing to do with me working full time, I just have other things to occupy my time.

As far as PvP,a lot of games have specific pvp gear by putting in the effort of PvPing, so there really isn't a requirement for the pve raiding. Sure, the pve raiding gear helps, but it is not necessary. So, if you enjoy raiding do it, if not not a big deal, you can still compete.

See this is the type of mmo mentality that has the genre effed uped. If me and another friend or me, myself and i go into an instance, the degree of difficulty should be scalable.

I shouldn't be able to go in and just lay waiste to everything and get that uper duper whatever item at the end. It should be hard but doable.

All i hear from the raider bunch is that, why do people play mmo's if they don't want to grp. Well, grouping shouldn't be something that is forced or required, it should be about people that meet ingame and want to do things togeither for a common goal.

I personally don't have a problem with grouping. Just last night logged back into SWG with the vet trial, went to test and grouped up and did the new Hoth instance.

The point i'm trying to make is,  that same instance should have been doable solo and scaled accordingly. Back in pre-cu times, if i decided that day to go and hunt krayt's and when i reached the graveyard and there was someone else there, i usually ended up in a group, with many more joining.

If there wouldn't have been anyone there, i still would have went hunting and it still would have been doable, not very easy but doable.

Becoming a jedi in pre-cu wasn't something that needed a group, and there wasn't  and still not even to this day anything that took more effort and time to do, in any mmo. That content wasn't cornered off for anyone or any special group. It was open to all that wanted to partake in whatever it took to become one.

All content should be available to everyone that pays a sub, period. Just because you push a button to find a group and go and wait 20 minutes for everyone to show up at some dumb meeting stone, doesn't make it harder or take more effort. It just takes more time.

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by FreddyNoNose

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by FreddyNoNose

 

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Originally posted by EATtheDEAD

 

 
back in old eq days grouping was normal cause everyone who played as you said looked forward to grouping and enjoyed doing it. those who didnt quit

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Hope you don't consider that a success?

 

I seem to recall a lot of EQ1 raiders complaining a lot. Things like DKP, Loot councils, favoritism. Not to mention people complaining about grouping with less hardcore players. Am I the only one who recalls this?

Perhaps I am off base here. I don't like being forced to do things in real life. Who here likes being forced to do things?

 

 

 

Actually EQ was a success. At one time it held the title for the largest western MMORPG before WoW. I know it had considerably less players but this may be from other factors other than players not liking it.

A. MMORPGs were still fairly a new genre and fewer players were aware of their existence.

B. The internet was here but not everyone had it in their homes as they do now. Some didn't have access and others just didn't see a need for it. The world wide web really hasn't been this popular for that long.

C.  PC prices were higher at that time in history and not everyone had one.

 

I think WoW came along at the right time to get those numbers. Sure solo play had some to do with it but I think the reasons I listed above does as well. Now that we have such a large MMORPG customer base it is time for games to start catering to different groups instead of trying to be everything for everyone. There needs to be very soloable games, very group based games. PvP based games, PvE based games, etc.

I never said EQ wasn't a success. Nice try to make something up.
 

 

You didn't? My apologies. I got that from the statement I bolded, and made larger above.

That big and you still don't understand it?  "Hope you don't consider that a success" points to/means the person I was refering to EATtheDEAD.  "Hope you, EATtheDEAD, don't consider that a success" is refering to what he was saying.  It certainly does not say I think EQ is a failure, that is your personal bias.
 

And people quiting isn't a measurement of success. Get it.

I hate raiding and I jhave never saw any soloer demand the same loot as raiders. Take wow for instance I have a job and kids so I have don't have the hours to put in to raid. Also I hope all the raiders who told me to lock my damn kids in their rooms so I could raid are sterile becasue they don't deserve kids. I don't want the same gear as raiders I don't worry about if my epeen is as big as theirs. I just have at most 3 hours on a couple nights a week to log on and if i don;t find a group then I just solo for awhile and chat with higher level friends. All I ask is to give me something at end game to do by myself or with a couple friends in the raid dungeons just so i can see the content. I don't care if you drop the loot quality just let me see the content and get a couple upgrades a step or 2 below raid level. Let raiders have their raids just give me an epic quest line that I can do by myself or with a couple friends thats leads to some cool looking gear and it doen't have to be raid quality just something to look forward to after an epic storyline.