Classes are a reaction to the problem of character power accrual.  In order to permit characters to gain in power, they must be artificially limited in their abilities.  If a developer tried to simply decompose a class system into all of its component skills, all players interested in maximum power would gravitate to a single collection of skills.  That would produce a single class, and alll power-hungry players would belong to it (with modest variations).

When eliminating classes, I also eliminate levels, experience points and power accrual.  Take a look at this article from about a year ago.

Those advocating natural penalties are on the right track, but I am surprised no one has mentioned the single most important thing to make a classless system work.

Even with natural penalties, there will still be a best strategy and thus a best build for the content, and if all players are expected to experience the same content then that will be the build they gravitate towards and the beauty of the skill based system is wasted.

What is needed is a diversity of situations that require unique combinations of skills.  Not only are situations diverse, but also the set of situations that a player chooses to participate in based on their own goals (not an endgame or linear grind chosen for them).  Thus players will have to find what they will be doing and how specific or broad their skill set with have to be.  Also with the changes in situation they will often have to adapt that skill set, sometimes training for a specific mission, or changing tactics as the situation dictates.

The only way to have this diversity of situation with any amount of quality without programming far more content than is possible for an MMO is to have a dynamic world where factors from the preset variables of the game world (weather, terrain, creature behavior, etc) combine with the various interactions of players with the game world and with each other (in completely free form social/economic/political ways) to create virtually unlimited dynamic content. 

If that doesn't start you seeing all the possibilities I could enumerate them, but hey, I'm late for work.  i.e. that reason I haven't been seen here for so long and that I now have no stars :(  (laments)

The article I linked is talking about the same thing, though I'm not sure we're on the same page for character skills.  I don't want a classical skill system.  I grant all characters all skills, but tasks require appropriate gear and player skill.  Locks require picks.  Fighting requires weapons.  Climbing requires ropes.  Skinning requires knives.  Different gear requires different levels of player skill.  Pick your gear and use the abilities that they enable.

Various gear enables or limits character options.  Lots of heavy gear limits movement.  Fragile gear breaks easily.  Metal impairs the effect of magic.  Noisy gear impedes stealth.

The net result is that a character configures a kind of class and level combination by equipping certain gear.  If the gear doesn't work for you, change the gear.  Note that when I talk of levels, I'm only talking about gear effectiveness.  If I have a dagger and you have a sword, you're probably the more effective combatant.  You're a higher 'level'.  Just as traditional classes need to go, so too do traditional levels.

I'll also observe that the 'single goal' in MMOs today is power accrual - becoming the most effective combatant via pure combat power.  As I said, classes exist to create multiple paths to trying to achieve that metric of maximum power.  Players really need tasks to entice them to DO things in the game world instead of just advancing their character power level.

Lastly, everyone interested in this area should study EVE Online, which has done some very good work to get players focused on goals other than power accrual (specifically, empire building).  EVE Online suffers from its own problems (e.g. it retains a character skill system), but it is a very good game to understand a style of gaming that contrasts with traditional fantasy MMOs.

Originally posted by ironore

Those advocating natural penalties are on the right track, but I am surprised no one has mentioned the single most important thing to make a classless system work.

Even with natural penalties, there will still be a best strategy and thus a best build for the content, and if all players are expected to experience the same content then that will be the build they gravitate towards and the beauty of the skill based system is wasted.

What is needed is a diversity of situations that require unique combinations of skills.  Not only are situations diverse, but also the set of situations that a player chooses to participate in based on their own goals (not an endgame or linear grind chosen for them).  Thus players will have to find what they will be doing and how specific or broad their skill set with have to be.  Also with the changes in situation they will often have to adapt that skill set, sometimes training for a specific mission, or changing tactics as the situation dictates.

The only way to have this diversity of situation with any amount of quality without programming far more content than is possible for an MMO is to have a dynamic world where factors from the preset variables of the game world (weather, terrain, creature behavior, etc) combine with the various interactions of players with the game world and with each other (in completely free form social/economic/political ways) to create virtually unlimited dynamic content. 

If that doesn't start you seeing all the possibilities I could enumerate them, but hey, I'm late for work.  i.e. that reason I haven't been seen here for so long and that I now have no stars :(  (laments)

You took the words right out of my mouth!  In all necessity, there needs to be a world that demands the use of all skills in some way, or else you see the variety of *best builds* that have been mentioned.  The thing is, MMO's don't really seem to try too hard so far.

Class-based systems do offer certain advantages that can be learned from when planning a skill-based system.  A couple mentioned in this thread so far:

1) Flavor of the month builds exist largely within each class.  In a game with customizable classes there will often be flavor of the month specs for those classes, but there will still be no fewer "best" builds than there are classes.

2) Natural restrictions, while attempting to discourage players from taking the strengths of every archetype, run the risk of herding players away from hybrids completely.  Class-based systems can introduce a class mechanic that balances things in such a way that a Tank-Mage isn't a problem, rather just another hybrid class.

What other sorts of strengths do class-based systems offer and to what degree can/should skill-based systems address those issues, if at all?

Good point about tank mages.

In a class system you could make a class that combined magic to tank with, like shields or runes or something, and short range magic attacks.  To get something like that in a skill system you couldn't just slap heavy armor on a mage, you would have to make the specific Runic Protection and Runic fury skills or whatever you call them, to the game, but then the same issue of picking magic tanking and magic ranged DPS could occur.

That is probably the best aspect of class systems,besides being easier to balance, the developers can craft really unique classes with their own mechanics, while characters within each class are mostly the same, the classes are really distinct. In a skill system you are essentially grabbing up skills to make a character so you really can't ever get a character to have the cohesion of a class your character will always seem like a mishmosh, unless the developers make all the skills needed to do so, in which case you have an odd multi-class system now.

Quote: In instances, i see problems without the system, but i do also see problems with the system. I suggest a compromise? Something thats halfway there, and halfway away from it?

Project Vex may have the compromise you are looking for. Within a given character “race” there are two sets of “classes.” Characters can have one “class” from each category at a time. These “classes” give access to special “skills” while there is also a list of general “skills” that all characters may learn. While you are limited to only one “class” from each of the two categories at any given time, you are still free to change these “classes” as you desire. Any “skills” you have learned along the way are not only still available to you, but may also still be developed (mostly via using them).

Quote: For one I think there has to be a hard cap for how many things you can learn, if you had no cap at all and could learn and master everything then people will do just that , or rather learn all the best skills.

Quote: Please CAP the skill system.  Theres no point in even having a progression system if everyone can max out every skill.  Yea, yea, it might take forever, but the veterans will always have infinately more skills than the newer players.

Putting a “cap” on the skills is one way of solving the dilemma of characters eventually all shedding any originality they had and all becoming the same epic character, but not the only way. In Project Vex, the characters are kept from this by the brutal fact that death is permanent for a character (though not nearly as common as your typical grind-rush game). Should a character actually survive long enough to acquire every skill available to them, and have maximum rank in each skill, they would be epic indeed; they will have earned it.

Quote: But I think there should also be limitations on what can be used together.  For instance since in my concept abilities rely on pocessing the coresponding item to use the ability, and your character can only carry weapons and items on their person, not their inventory, it limits what you can use together.

This is an excellent idea. Similar to my own game, where a character might have a backpack, but the backpack has finite volume. Each item added to the backpack increases its bulk as well as its weight. Just like the bulk and weight of armor affects a character, so does the backpack, perhaps even more so. Granted, not all weapons would fit into a backpack, so for the most part, weapons are carried separately (which makes it nice for players who drop their character's backpack to be more effective in combat, allowing them to still have access to their weapons).

Quote: This system also makes grouping a bit more difficult in the aspect that you need to ask what people are doing,

Without classes it is certainly harder to form a group of adventurers quickly. In a game that involves role-playing, and true player-character interaction though, it becomes less of an issue.

Quote: The trick now is the balancing act between advancement and decay, too much decay and regardless of how long you play your character will never be a super hero, too little decay and everyone will be a god. It should be slow enough that only 'retired' characters ever actually see their stats drop significantly, everone else just finds it increasingly difficult to maintain a skill without using them.

As many others have said, having retired characters slowly losing their skills over time would be a horrible design mistake. It would be tantamount to deleting a player's characters if they stopped playing the game for a while (which is why I never went back to Diablo II).

Quote: Balance the system with natural penalties.  Sure, you can wear that plate armor and cast spells, but there will be a penalty to your casting ability.  Another important balance would be attributes, which I think MMOs have always over looked.  If attributes are important, then it will be hard to make a tank mage type of character because they need certain high attributes to be a good fighter (strength, dexterity, constitution) and other high attributes to be a good caster (intelligence, wisdom, etc.). 

In Project Vex, a character's attributes are key components that affect almost everything. The “skills” of Project Vex are more tools than anything else (for example, a character might have a “skill” that allows them to climb, but the character with the proper attribute for effective climbing will easily surpass the first character's ability to climb). In a similar vein, the weapons and armor of a character can also be seen as tools that require the attributes to make effective.

(Note: In Project Vex, “skill” refers to just about everything a character can do, from dodging arrows to casting “spells”)

Quote: Good point, however in my persistant universe your characters are maintaining themselves, that may well prompt further explaination... but lets just say that you logging off for a while will not impact your char. Also it wont be decaying your stats so quickly that within 5days you'd of lost significant ratings even if you didn't use the skills, also a point I didn't make... reversing the decay is relatively easy, as you advance 'normally' you earn rebate on the decay. In effect as long as your using your skills enough to prompt an advance (hence a lot if they are very high rating skills) you wont notice any decay.

Having offline characters affect the online world is a great idea (I have similar mechanics for Project Vex). One of the ways this is implemented in my design, is that players of a specific “race” all have professions, however, the profession of your character only matters when you are logged out. Thus, your time in game can be considered your character's off time, while when you are away, your character is hard at work (more than just nominally, this actually has an effect on the game world).

Quote: What is needed is a diversity of situations that require unique combinations of skills.  Not only are situations diverse, but also the set of situations that a player chooses to participate in based on their own goals (not an endgame or linear grind chosen for them).  Thus players will have to find what they will be doing and how specific or broad their skill set with have to be.  Also with the changes in situation they will often have to adapt that skill set, sometimes training for a specific mission, or changing tactics as the situation dictates.

Quote: The only way to have this diversity of situation with any amount of quality without programming far more content than is possible for an MMO is to have a dynamic world where factors from the preset variables of the game world (weather, terrain, creature behavior, etc) combine with the various interactions of players with the game world and with each other (in completely free form social/economic/political ways) to create virtually unlimited dynamic content. 

This kind of diversity is the future of online games that will have any worth, in my opinion. Imagine, in five years, where our technology will have taken us, and what we will be able to accomplish? Project Vex has many sky-scraping goals, but it also going to continue to be in the design phase for a few years to come. Once development begins, I expect that what we are able to develop in games will surpass even my greatest expectations.

I was thinking maybe you could have some classes, but you would be able to be a classless mage, what i mean by....

Mage is a name for a magic user, but there is.... alot of kinds of Mages

(acctually i got this idea from a debunking video of intelligent design)

Battle Mage - melee magic, use magic to protect and attack, bloster his power

Fire, Water, Wind, Earth Mages - diff. ranged, elemental controle (elementalist)

Black and White Mage - possible heal spells and blessing vs. Curses and pain

Alchemist - well .. no mage without alchemy

So we have these diffrent kinds abillitys within the mage class and the player, if he selects Mage, he is classless within his class

What I am trying to pose is that i find it quite hard if not too hard to make it completely classless, so a middle ground I mean there is still alot of possibllitys within this one mage class, think could work ?

A well designed skill-based system 'can' grant you all the comforts of Classes like Tactical Transparency and so forth. And there really is no such thing as a 'cookie cutter build' unless you have a skill cap. EVE Online is 'capless' so that's a non-issue for that type of game if you follow

You gain Overlap- meaning no one sits around in town for 1-2 hours waiting on healer. Additionally, party wont fall apart when healer leaves because in a pinch I can pull out my staff and start healing others

It has the potential to be a much more casual way to play. Newbies not forced to pick a 'Class' when they are ignorant about the title.

Additionally, you have the Tactical Transparency if the system setup for it. for instance if Mages have to use a Staff then you know you dealing with a caster.

If there is weight restrictions then chances are they havbe no room for spare gear or rather not much room. Especially if looting is in play who wants to give away 2 sets of gear? etc etc

Mainly, I want to see different things. How bout more skill-based games? how bout an 'unlock' system where growth is purely horizontal (only seen in FPS so far). etc, etc. Let's get some different games out there.

One more thing- an Indie I feel should provide an experience that one cannot find in a mainstream product. Otherwise, surely you will be overlooked.

I always ignore indie Class based mmorpgs. But I would play something that has no skills altogether (Starport) or skill-based in a second

Why? Well because the indie product is providing a niche experience that is currently not replicated in a mainstream product.

So for a small company, etc I would say they better think long and hard and get some innovation happening. Otherwise your product will surely be overclouded by the more flashy, higher budget titles

There's nothing wrong with jack-of-all-trades style advancement. If anything, this is a sign that the population is too low, or there aren't enough incentives to cooperate. Furthermore, one problem many skill-based games fall into is the trap that players don't need tools.

It makes no sense that a a warrior can go into battle without a sword. Therefore, a wizard should not be able to work his magic without a staff. This will prevent some of the magic-knights running around slashing stuff and throwing fireballs and then dropping a heal on their self.

I prefer classless for a very simple reason.

I prefer a game that allows only 1 char per server and you cant really have that with classes without people complaining you are limiting play.

Originally posted by mrw0lf

I prefer classless for a very simple reason.

I prefer a game that allows only 1 char per server and you cant really have that with classes without people complaining you are limiting play.

This is entirely dependent upon the game itself.  Surely, World of Warcraft, Everquest, and their horde of dopplegangers would limit play in this way, but a game like Project Vex wouldn't. 

When experimenting with new game mechanics, you can't merely plug and play  with old games.  The game needs to be it's own animal.  It amazes me how many people are stuck in the idea that a new game mechanic wouldn't work, simply because it wouldn't work in the current breed of MMORPGs.  This is what people mean when they urge you to "think outside the box."

Originally posted by Velexia

Originally posted by mrw0lf

I prefer classless for a very simple reason.

I prefer a game that allows only 1 char per server and you cant really have that with classes without people complaining you are limiting play.

 

This is entirely dependent upon the game itself.  Surely, World of Warcraft, Everquest, and their horde of dopplegangers would limit play in this way, but a game like Project Vex wouldn't. 

When experimenting with new game mechanics, you can't merely plug and play  with old games.  The game needs to be it's own animal.  It amazes me how many people are stuck in the idea that a new game mechanic wouldn't work, simply because it wouldn't work in the current breed of MMORPGs.  This is what people mean when they urge you to "think outside the box."

You're asking me to take into account a game that is largely in your head? Sorry I failed telepathy.
 

Originally posted by mrw0lf

Originally posted by Velexia

 

This is entirely dependent upon the game itself.  Surely, World of Warcraft, Everquest, and their horde of dopplegangers would limit play in this way, but a game like Project Vex wouldn't. 

When experimenting with new game mechanics, you can't merely plug and play  with old games.  The game needs to be it's own animal.  It amazes me how many people are stuck in the idea that a new game mechanic wouldn't work, simply because it wouldn't work in the current breed of MMORPGs.  This is what people mean when they urge you to "think outside the box."

You're asking me to take into account a game that is largely in your head? Sorry I failed telepathy.
 

Ah no, I don't really expect anyone here to fully understand what Project Vex is about, as I have given only small snippets of information about it.  All I am expecting is a little imagination in regards to MMORPGs in general.  I was merely offering Project Vex as an example of a game that is not a World of Lamecraft / Neverquest doppleganger.

Originally posted by mrw0lf

I prefer classless for a very simple reason.

I prefer a game that allows only 1 char per server and you cant really have that with classes without people complaining you are limiting play.

Thats why i using a Rock, Paper and the Scissors system would work, giving the player the finger and forcing the player to communicate and teamwork with other players to achive goals

The problem isnt the system(s) used. Its the players.

There is a happy medium, and its been used in many games. That medium is to have the classes, but have skills and abilities to choose from that aren't "required" and where they aren't any more or less powerful, just different.

The problem is, someone would come onto a thread and proclaim their's as the ultimate build, everyone else will follow suit, and over time that somehow becomes the standard of the class.

It doesn't really matter what devs do. The problem is that too many players don't build the character they want to build, they build the one they think they should. Because instead of making fun characters people would rather have the most powerful ones.

Originally posted by merv808

The problem isnt the system(s) used. Its the players.

There is a happy medium, and its been used in many games. That medium is to have the classes, but have skills and abilities to choose from that aren't "required" and where they aren't any more or less powerful, just different.

The problem is, someone would come onto a thread and proclaim their's as the ultimate build, everyone else will follow suit, and over time that somehow becomes the standard of the class.

It doesn't really matter what devs do. The problem is that too many players don't build the character they want to build, they build the one they think they should. Because instead of making fun characters people would rather have the most powerful ones.

Thats also a part of what happens in WoW where a Guild would only take in Holy Healing Priests

Originally posted by merv808

The problem isnt the system(s) used. Its the players.

There is a happy medium, and its been used in many games. That medium is to have the classes, but have skills and abilities to choose from that aren't "required" and where they aren't any more or less powerful, just different.

The problem is, someone would come onto a thread and proclaim their's as the ultimate build, everyone else will follow suit, and over time that somehow becomes the standard of the class.

It doesn't really matter what devs do. The problem is that too many players don't build the character they want to build, they build the one they think they should. Because instead of making fun characters people would rather have the most powerful ones.

IMO It doesn't have to be like that. A well designed and balanced classless system, with the apropriate natural penalties, will ensure there's no "ultimate build" for every situation.

As starman999 said, in the original SWG most people just picked up the character they liked with whatever mix of skills they wanted and enjoyed the freedom of individuality.

Personally I would love a fine classless game with well planned natural penalties.

Originally posted by Tatum

I'd agree with most of whats been said.

Uber builds should only be a problem with combat heavy games.  If theres a true, player driven economy and all the jobs that come with it, you'd have to expect that players will build their characters to fill these jobs.  When it comes to combat, a certain amount of the players are always going to gravitate towards the FOTM builds, even if it's a class system.

Balance the system with natural penalties.  Sure, you can wear that plate armor and cast spells, but there will be a penalty to your casting ability.  Another important balance would be attributes, which I think MMOs have always over looked.  If attributes are important, then it will be hard to make a tank mage type of character because they need certain high attributes to be a good fighter (strength, dexterity, constitution) and other high attributes to be a good caster (intelligence, wisdom, etc.). 

Please CAP the skill system.  Theres no point in even having a progression system if everyone can max out every skill.  Yea, yea, it might take forever, but the veterans will always have infinately more skills than the newer players.

And yes, I'd go for a GOOD class system, but their getting even harder to find.  To be a good class system, you still need options for customization (specs, skills, multi-classing, etc).  What we're seeing now is getting more and more generic and thoughtless.

You dont need a skill cap per se if the game has tactical constraints whereas you cant use all skills at once. Look at eve online for example. EVen though a vet might be to fill many different roles- he casn only fulfill one role at a time. Thus newbies still have a role that is needed.

Vets will be diverse while newbies are specialists

Saying a classless system won't work is like saying collectible card games or Final Fantasy 7s materia system won't work. If you set up your mmo to have a list of skills and make people take only certain ones with them into battle, then it'll work fine. Guild Wars does this, doesn't it?

There is a happy medium though as a previous poster mentioned, and that is having classes, but also allowing for customization within the class. Allow people to add a few abilities from other classes to their build, and you end up with tons of different ways to play, all of which can work. The only problem with this system is that, as people have mentioned, there generally pops up an uber build which people think HAS to be done. This happened a lot in FFXI -- you could choose a subjob, but according to the masses, only a few were worth it. The problem came from a classic example -- the fighter mage.

If someone wanted to be a Warrior/White Mage, most people thought it was a bad idea. Why? Because all of the skills were affected by stats, and the warrior did not have mage stats. So subjobbing white mage wouldn't work, because you wouldn't be good enough of a mage. The problem was that there was only so many armor choices you could get, and none that a warrior could wear would really make you a better mage.

That's why you need to pair a classless system/hybrid system with customization of equipment as well. If the only armor I can get adds strength, then it IS dumb to be a warrior/white mage, because it won't be worth it. You'll be much better as something else. But if you can create armor with any stats that you want, then you can add mage stats to the heavy armor, and you'll be much better.  In this way, the classes are more like suggestions, and you can alter your character any way you see fit.

The crux of the problem is really in healing. Give me a reason not to take healing skills in a classless system. I mean, if I'm a warrior build soloing, it's far more efficient to dump a couple points into sub-par healing abilities than to pack jillions of potions in the wide majority of games. If I'm a caster build, well that's just another spell to add to the pile.

It works in multiclass systems because they can place restrictions on healing, and healing takes up a job slot that could otherwise be used to substantially boost the main job's abilities. But in a totally classless system, 90% of people will be able to heal to some degree.

The reason is that in a game that's classless/hybrid, you should be planning your moves around your group.  I consider it like a collectible card game (although I've never played one, so pardon me if I'm mistaken here).  You have a deck.  You're going out to camp some monsters with 4 buddies.  You all are in a main city (hub) and are determining what to take.  Specialization IS a good thing.  That's why classes exist in the first place.  The problem I have with it is when the game determines what classes there are.  I want to be able to determine my own class.  

Anyways, so you and 4 buddies are there.  What should you take?  Does someone want to heal? Do you all want to take one healing spell and spread the love around?  Each person be responsible for one other?  Maybe have two half healer half warriors?  

If you make monsters that are very different strategically, a classless system allows people to come up with ANY strategy they want.  Make a monster that attacks everyone randomly, regardless of emnity/hate.  How would that work with normal party mechanics?  It wouldn't really -- can't be a tank unless you are taking the damage.  Make a monster that can't be provoked and what happens? 

There are a ton of different strategies you could use -- everyone be warrior with some healing is one simple one.   The fact is I shouldn't be limited by what my job is -- I should have enough skills that I'm adaptable to different situations.

Right now there aren't very many "different situations" in mmo's, so class systems work just fine.  But have different situations would make fighting a lot more fun, and being able to adapt to those situations would be really fun.

You're right -- in a solo mode, everyone would take healing.  But MMOs should be about grouping, and in a group setting, that completely changes.

Except that rarely happens. Everyone in a classless game is expected to have full healing abilities so they can sub in as a backup healer unless there is a real detriment to levelling your healing.

Do you have an example of a game like this?  I've never seen it before, so I can't really talk about the fact that no one does it.

I can say that's their problem -- that's the easiest plan probably, but I'm sure it's not the best way to fight, either.  As a game designer you need to persuade people to try new things.  Give them an incentive for not having all the same skills. 

It all comes down to implementation.  It definitely COULD work, if done right.