Originally posted by Distiler

 I don't quite like that review, I'm an avid EvE and STO player and I think both are very good games at what they are trying to achieve. EvE is the best virtual world out there and STO is like a Star Trek TV season in gaming format, but the writer didn't pay enough attention to the chapters (storylines). Perhaps the writer doesen't remember neither the original serie or the more modern ones like DS9 or Voyager, or the films. If you remember well them, playing STO storylines is really like watching a TV serial with a lot of connections with those past series and films, the most well done PVE questing experience in a mmo ever. And I'm not talking about 1 quest, I'm talking about storylines, series of linked quests, that go for like lvl1 to 20 or more (I'm at lvl 21), like the most prominent Miral Paris and augments storyline.

You really need a reviewer with solid knowledge about Star Trek franchise to review STO. Even more, you need to know about Star Trek to enjoy this game, otherwise it's like other mmo, with a few innovations here and there.

 

I'm really agree on the documentation, trying to understand how things work is hard in the game. Also, I don't think it's an mmo in the classical old-school meaning. I don't even think it tries to make players stay ingame for years like EvE, Galaxies, etc, it's more like a game than a world, but that doesen't mean it is not a good game.

 

The last link mmmhh fun but I don't like it.

Actually, no, STO should be a fun game even if the player has never seen an episode of Star Trek in his or her life.  If it only appeals to fans of the lore, it fails the definition of a good game.  (see EVE, what the heck is the lore about in that game, I have no idea, but its my favorite MMO to play)

And if you paid attention, Lum did say he was a huge fan of the IP, in fact, its the main reason he purchased the game and is a little bit too forgiving in his review of the game IMO.

You are correct, it more of a game than world, and that's the pity of it, a great IP like Star Trek should have been built as a virtual world and the opportunity was squandered.

In single player games, a franchise is frequently passed around to multiple development houses so you get many games based on an IP, (ST being one of them) but in the MMO world you rarely see a 2nd chance (SWTOR being the first I believe) and from most people's perspective, STO will have to die a quick death so the world they really had hoped for can be made.

Sadly, that looks to be more like 5-10 years away now.

Originally posted by VultureSkull

No doubt you were expecting something different which does not fit in with an MMO, maybe more scripted stories ala a single player game. If you were expecting that then ofc you will be disaapointed as this is not a sngle player game. 

 

Hei, STO is full of scripted stories that are linked with the films and series. Some of the best quests in mmo industry are in STO. Some go for 10 or more lvls. Almirant Quinn give those storylines (at lvl 20 it changes to another almirant, T'Nae I think).

Sorry Scott, but your opinion about "what is an MMO" is outdated. In fact, even in WoW you mostly play with few people and we can argue if it's better to just see other people running everywhere.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Actually, no, STO should be a fun game even if the player has never seen an episode of Star Trek in his or her life.  If it only appeals to fans of the lore, it fails the definition of a good game.  (see EVE, what the heck is the lore about in that game, I have no idea, but its my favorite MMO to play).

 

 If you know the lore you enjoy it more than if you dont, in World of Warcraft, in EvE, in Galaxies, etc. If you don't, you enjoy the game mechanics mostly, but you loose some of the enjoyment about the storyline. Both ways STO is fun, but if you remember films and series, you'll amaze at lots of quests. Exactly in Galaxies, but in STO questing is linked in long storylines, not in mostly independent quests.

Otherwise, I don't think about STO or SWTOR as mmos, but an hibrid between single player, multiplayer and mmos. Both have something in common, history is the central theme, and in both you really need to read and remember storylines to really have enjoyment. The typical trend of picking all the quest in a zone and having the journal full is bad for those kind of games, you get lost in stories that in most cases are linked in STO and, it seems, will be in SWTOR.

BTW, CCP lore in EvE is awesome and extensive (not as much as Star Trek or Star Wars of course), but it does not affect day to day play except if you're in a roleplaying corp/alliance. I was in Ushra'Khan, and gaming experience there owns any non-rp corp/alliance.

Originally posted by Distiler

Originally posted by VultureSkull

No doubt you were expecting something different which does not fit in with an MMO, maybe more scripted stories ala a single player game. If you were expecting that then ofc you will be disaapointed as this is not a sngle player game. 

 

 

Hei, STO is full of scripted stories that are linked with the films and series. Some of the best quests in mmo industry are in STO. Some go for 10 or more lvls. Almirant Quinn give those storylines (at lvl 20 it changes to another almirant, T'Nae I think).

The problem isn't the content that is there, it's the content that isn't. There are some pretty good stories in the game, some quests are fun and well done, but you run out of them quickly, and for the most part they still feel like single player experiences.

Don't get me wrong, I am having fun in the game, but am not such a fan of the IP or Cryptic that I am going to see that it's not a turd painted gold. I will stick it out to the 45 day patch (I am not optimistic that anything great will come of that given my experience with CO) and/or until I make admiral, and see how things are, but so much would have to change for me to see myself playing this game in three months, let alone a year, that I can't imagine sticking with this for the long haul.

Looks like I might give FE a try soon.

Originally posted by Naral

Originally posted by Distiler

Originally posted by VultureSkull

No doubt you were expecting something different which does not fit in with an MMO, maybe more scripted stories ala a single player game. If you were expecting that then ofc you will be disaapointed as this is not a sngle player game. 

 

 

Hei, STO is full of scripted stories that are linked with the films and series. Some of the best quests in mmo industry are in STO. Some go for 10 or more lvls. Almirant Quinn give those storylines (at lvl 20 it changes to another almirant, T'Nae I think).

The problem isn't the content that is there, it's the content that isn't. There are some pretty good stories in the game, some quests are fun and well done, but you run out of them quickly, and for the most part they still feel like single player experiences.

Don't get me wrong, I am having fun in the game, but am not such a fan of the IP or Cryptic that I am going to see that it's not a turd painted gold. I will stick it out to the 45 day patch (I am not optimistic that anything great will come of that given my experience with CO) and/or until I make admiral, and see how things are, but so much would have to change for me to see myself playing this game in three months, let alone a year, that I can't imagine sticking with this for the long haul.

Looks like I might give FE a try soon.

I also think that when you reach almirant and finish the storylines, the game is done. Same thing happens to me with most mmo, except EvE and Galaxies. But also happens with most non-mmo games when you beat the end boss, like paying 50$ for 20 hours of gameplay. I can't understand ppl playing WoW for years, but if they enjoy grinding, well, so be it. I stick with mmo's as long as storylines are compeling or because sandbox tools are quite interesting so to "live" in a virtual world. Otherwise, I cancel. EvE has rp and sandbox tools, Galaxies too, STO has storylines.

The problem is many people judge on how they (unreasonable) expectations meet or not with the game, instead the game itself.

They just pick things they do not like or they prefer in other MMOs and complain that STO do or do not have them.

Originally posted by Gdemami

The problem is many people judge on how they (unreasonable) expectations meet or not with the game, instead the game itself.

They just pick things they do not like or they prefer in other MMOs and complain that STO do or do not have them.

 

Problem is. There is not much to pick from in STO. It's either Pew Pew Pew in space. Or Pew Pew Pew on ground.

Cheers

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Originally posted by Guillermo197
 
Problem is. There is not much to pick from in STO. It's either Pew Pew Pew in space. Or Pew Pew Pew on ground.
Cheers

---

That is the least problem.

It is funny you mention it but it is quite unique to have pew pew in space and ground in one bundle so that might be the first thing to pick.

2nd pick can be very interesting combat mechanics
3rd pick can be very good story line and PVE content all together
4th pick can be the casuality of gameplay

etc.

Originally posted by JoeTan

 I dont get what the hell you people are talking about. 

 

This game is not an mmo, its a horrible way of Crypic to suck money out of its playerbase once again. 

 

They pissed on the STAR TREK IP, and made this instanced POS, with absolutely no depth, no Trek feel, and no it does not feel like an MMO at all.

 

Its obvious all they want is to make money on the boxsales and then ( hopefully ) they can just fuck the rest. 

 

The fact that people play this, accepting this game, as an mmo. are enabling a crap devcompany like Cryptic to keep spweing their crap games out on the street.

 

Goddamnit even some of the musicsequences are ripped off of CoH  / CoV and CO. Same characteranimations, same lifeless feel to the world, and the same crap randomgenerated missions.

 

Horrible abomination of  a game, and i feel sad that people are endorsing this piece of shit game as an mmo.

 

EDIT: And i remember Jack Emmert, standing on stage with Leonard Nimoy, calling himself a STAR TREK fan. How can he sleep at night. ?? Gene Roddenberry must be turning in his grave.

 

The saddest part, is that this game is probably gonna have an impact on the new generation of STAR TREK fans, and its being presented in the most shallow way possible. Sure to destroy the future of Trek if people just accept it. 

 

And im not even a Trekkie ffs.

Damn right.

I agree with this article. I'm also with him when he says that STO isn't a bad game, and is still fun enough to play for the time being. So while I recognize the bad and ugly parts of STO, the game is still worth playing in my opinion.

Ewww! That's tacky putting a link to Eve at the end of that article with the hyperlink being," It could be a very compelling game".

Very classless and unprofessional. It nullified the entire article.

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Originally posted by silkakc
Ewww! That's tacky putting a link to Eve at the end of that article with the hyperlink being," It could be a very compelling game".
Very classless and unprofessional. It nullified the entire article.

---

Yeah, I was wondering about the same but I was puting blame on my English for not understanding what it is supposed to mean.

Originally posted by Sarr

Sorry Scott, but your opinion about "what is an MMO" is outdated. In fact, even in WoW you mostly play with few people and we can argue if it's better to just see other people running everywhere.

The reason given in the article that implies that STOL is not a MMO is the use of instancing.

And is then compared to Guild Wars. Other MMOs that use instancing that i know of are AoC and EQ2. Are these not MMOs either because they use instancing?

Or maybe it is the amount of instancing that is used in STOL that makes it not an MMO.

To my understanding there are 3 levels of instancing, you have games like Vanguard that use no instancing, then you have games like EQ2 and AoC (and STOL) that use some instancing, and finally the total instancing ala Guild Wars where only the towns (hubs)are not instanced.

Since STOL does not use total instancing i fail to see how it can be compared to Guild Wars where as AoC and EQ2 are not.

This coupled with the points i give above regrading the way people play WoW and STOL being similar makes me wonder why the writer (Scott) and others on the Internet forums persist with this arguement, based, it seems on a "feeling" when they play STOL.

Originally posted by VultureSkull

Originally posted by Sarr

Sorry Scott, but your opinion about "what is an MMO" is outdated. In fact, even in WoW you mostly play with few people and we can argue if it's better to just see other people running everywhere.

 

The reason given in the article that implies that STOL is not a MMO is the use of instancing.

And is then compared to Guild Wars. Other MMOs that use instancing that i know of are AoC and EQ2. Are these not MMOs either because they use instancing?

Or maybe it is the amount of instancing that is used in STOL that makes it not an MMO.

To my understanding there are 3 levels of instancing, you have games like Vanguard that use no instancing, then you have games like EQ2 and AoC (and STOL) that use some instancing, and finally the total instancing ala Guild Wars where only the towns (hubs)are not instanced.

Since STOL does not use total instancing i fail to see how it can be compared to Guild Wars where as AoC and EQ2 are not.

This coupled with the points i give above regrading the way people play WoW and STOL being similar makes me wonder why the writer (Scott) and others on the Internet forums persist with this arguement, based, it seems on a "feeling" when they play STOL.

Maybe we played different games but STO has total instancing.   Its using the exact same server and instancing system code as CO.   Infact its pretty much a given that CO was the "test bed" for STO's server infrastructure.

The only place I believe that is uninstanced is the spacehub.  Everywhere else you can choose which version of the instance to go too including the Star Map, every quest is in an instanced off area where only those in your group or who are auto grouped to you can go.
 

The only time you might not notice the instancing is if you have told the game through its settings to Auto Put you in an instance instead of allowing you to choose.  If you've turned off choosing your own instance you won't notice the instancing until your attempting to find your friends on the flight map.

 A couple of notes on comments so far:

* I paid fairly close attention last night and indeed, space loot isn't awarded on ground and vice versa. So my bad there - working from memory.

* I notice that everyone commenting that there is in fact a good deal of episodic content tends to be in the upper 20s or better for level range. I have heard that the problem with running out of steam content-wise tends to disappear at that point - not sure if that's due to levelling speed or more content, though.

* I indeed did not hit on energy management being a part of space gameplay, nor did I talk about the expose/exploit system in ground combat - I didn't feel it necessary to go into that level of specifics for what was already a fairly detailed overview. I had seen some writeups on how damage varied for some weapons based on range, but given that I usually play escorts and spend my time more worrying about angle of attack then range, it's hard to tell. 

* As for my knowledge of the IP, I daresay I would put my knowledge of ST lore against anyone, including many of the more recent series writers :)  I do appreciate how the content is very much in chronological order, and cackled for pretty much a solid five minutes during the Guardian of Forever mission arc when one of the characters commented on how painful a headache time travel missions were. 

* I didn't notice a good deal of difference between Patrol and Exploration missions, I'll have to check them out in more detail (especially since I'm out of episodic content again!)

* Again, I'm sorry if some of you thought the snarky link at the end was inappropriate. The two games are in fact very similar, and they both have strengths that the other lacks. Much as STO could benefit from Eve's sense of persistence and player ownership, Eve could very much benefit from STO's more visceral and active space combat.

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Originally posted by LumTheMad
 
* Again, I'm sorry if some of you thought the snarky link at the end was inappropriate. The two games are in fact very similar, and they both have strengths that the other lacks. Much as STO could benefit from Eve's sense of persistence and player ownership, Eve could very much benefit from STO's more visceral and active space combat.

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'The two games are in fact very similar, and they both have strengths that the other lacks.'

Seems to me quite the contrary and they are indeed two opposites.

Can you elaborate what those similarities apart from being in space are supposed to be?

I picked up a lifetime subscription to Star Trek Online because I was curious how it was like.  Between the "when all things are said and done this is pretty shallow" and "is this an MMORPG" points is why I've come to regret this decision.

I can partly forgive the first on the grounds that MMORPGs are, practically by definition, bastions of shallow gameplay where skill is swapped out for persistence.  Star Trek Online does better than usual at coaxing skill out of its players, and perhaps will do so even more if they get around to adding a difficulty slider.

As for the second, however... I logically knew what I was getting into, but it seems I had to witness it myself from the perspective of a lifetime subscription for it to really ground in.  This game lacks that certain sense of what makes an MMORPG compelling, the virtual world, the social backdrop, the grinding existing within a frame in which your progress would seem to matter... a purpose.  Virtual purpose or not, it's what makes these games worth $15/mo, and whether it's the heavy instancing or some other aspect of the design, STO doesn't have it.

You know, if I had an EVE Online lifetime subscription (that I'm aware of there's no such thing) it'd seem to meet the requirements that STO lacks but, at the same time, I would actually be a bit daunted in how much of a ridiculous grind the game is.  EVE Online is dead to me on the grounds that its balanced to be so very conductive to grandfathered power hording.  Even if it were discounted to $50, I'd pass up on a lifetime subscription to EVE Online on the grounds that there's really no place for me there. 

Besides, I never liked the gameplay in EVE Online, with all its fire-and-forget mechanics.  Orbit at x range, turn on weapon, wait, be prepared to hit emergency button if necessary.  Blargh.  The battles are usually over before they've even begun, my participation is too transparently only knowing some very crude rules about which buttons need pushing.  When I could be replaced with a simple AI script, it's not a game I want to play.

It seems what I want is a game that is both deep and massively multiplayer.  Suitably interactive and suitably dynamic.  Has such a thing ever existed?  I've played a lot of MMORPGs... I think Final Fantasy XI Renkais are as close as I've ever got.  Cabal Online combos got close, at least depth on a tactile level, but they screwed it up in their implementation of Auras/Battle Modes.  Nearly everything else... well, when I was bored of EverQuest, I was done with them.

I agree on most of your points. however part of the ugly you mentioned could easily be improved such as the server stability. you have to give them props for a smoother release than a few other mmo's of recent years. yes the grind is definately there but episodes like i believe its called "city of the edge of never" give me great hope as i got goosebumps hearing spock speak to me over audio when we were zipped into the past by the guardian. that is what a star trek mmo quest should be. i am hoping there will be more like that one in the future.

Wait a minute how can anyone comment on "the grind", when some players achieved max level in a week?  All I can say anyone mentioning that there is a grind in this game is getting heavily laughed at.

I have to agree with Lum though on the space battles, Star Trek ship battles are far more interactive than an Eve battle.  In Eve ship fittings determine far more of the outcome than skill does.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Wait a minute how can anyone comment on "the grind", when some players achieved max level in a week?  All I can say anyone mentioning that there is a grind in this game is getting heavily laughed at.

Assuming they didn't get max level quickly by exploiting broken/misbalanced missions.  That sort of thing happened a lot in the beta.

I loved the game until they made it to easy. I have already stopped playing and have no intention of returning to this single player game they are trying to put off as an MMO. Anyone can make max in 8 days without worry of dieing or needing to group up. To easy of a game is no fun for me.

Originally posted by VultureSkull

Originally posted by Dave3216

I do agree its not an MMO its a co-op game and therefore shouldnt draw a subscription. Apart from that its a fun light break in current mmo poop.

 

I guess everyone agrees that WoW is an MMO, what makes WoW an MMO and STOL not?

 

When i play WoW i go out into the world and do quests

 

When i play STOL i go out into the world and do quests after I load...... from the room I got the quest in. Then I load....out of space dock. Then I load....into the lame grid map. Then I click on a name and auto fly to a system. then I load.....into the system kill 5 patrolls then load......back to the lame grid map. over and over and over again.

 

When i play WoW i see lots of people running around  in the cities

When i play STOL i see lots of people running around in the Space dock (lobby)
 

 

When i play WoW i go to dungeons and co-operate with others

When i play STOL i go to certain systems and join with others to kill big NPCs. Only because I am thrust in with them by the game. There is no communicaton or tactics, team work friendship or comraderie.

 

When i play WoW i quest with my friends

When i play STOL i quest with strangers I am thrust into shoebox instances with.
 

 

When i play WoW i buy stuff from others on the auction house

When i play STOL i buy stuff from others on the auction house
 

 

Etc

Etc

fixed.
 

Originally posted by oddjobs74

 

Originally posted by VultureSkull

Originally posted by Dave3216

I do agree its not an MMO its a co-op game and therefore shouldnt draw a subscription. Apart from that its a fun light break in current mmo poop.

 

I guess everyone agrees that WoW is an MMO, what makes WoW an MMO and STOL not?

 

When i play WoW i go out into the world and do quests

 

When i play STOL i go out into the world and do quests after I load...... from the room I got the quest in. Then I load....out of space dock. Then I load....into the lame grid map. Then I click on a name and auto fly to a system. then I load.....into the system kill 5 patrolls then load......back to the lame grid map. over and over and over again.

 

When i play WoW i see lots of people running around  in the cities

When i play STOL i see lots of people running around in the Space dock (lobby)
 

 

When i play WoW i go to dungeons and co-operate with others

When i play STOL i go to certain systems and join with others to kill big NPCs. Only because I am thrust in with them by the game. There is no communicaton or tactics, team work friendship or comraderie.

 

When i play WoW i quest with my friends

When i play STOL i quest with strangers I am thrust into shoebox instances with.
 

 

When i play WoW i buy stuff from others on the auction house

When i play STOL i buy stuff from others on the auction house
 

 

Etc

Etc

fixed.
 

hehe agreed was just to lazy to reply myself. Very much like instancing in Dragon Age shock horror a single player game.
 

I'm not touching this with a 10 foot pole.

..and I'm a fan of both mmorpgs's AND star trek. Truly.

You figure it out.