Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by maplestone

If nobody is making your dream game, make it yourself.

Making games is hella hard, especially if you are poor.

I never claimed it was easy.  But I think that whenever a person is feeling down about the state of worlds out there, it helps to sit down and actually think clearly about the obstacles and scale of work/organization required to make one of these behemoths happen.

If you use good middleware and gnu tools and you sacrifice on art assets and graphics its not actually that hard. Its mostly all about capital. Which is hardly shocking. Everything is about capital.

The hardest part of game design: a solid design, a flexible system

The most expensive part of game design: Art assets

This is the problem for most indie mmos and/or startups.

Getting art-assets is the most time-consuming and expensive part of any game. And visuals sell, its a fact.

I'm making a TCG/CCG atm and my ruleset is done and ready since last year january, but i only have one of 2 decks ready with art assets and i still need to launch with at least one booster.

If you don't work full-time on your project and are ready to fund it from your own pocket, it will take years to get all assets into the game. Even after i've figured out how to streamline asset-creation with various tricks I still spend at least one day on one card (thats one day of free-time, i.e. around 4h).

With modern games this workload tripples or even quadruples. Making just 30 unique character models for NPCs/mobs will already take you around half a year if you are doing it as a hobby, even if you cheat around it with tools like Makehuman for humanoids and buying ready-made environment assets like trees and rocks.

And thats without the UI, sound-design (which will be expected), scripting and prgramming.

Realistically, the only thing you can actually make as a single individual is a MUD, not an MMO.

Its not impossible to create a MMO from scratch on the cheap these days with all the tools out there. i mean just take the guys over at 3d buzz. They sell online videos on programming anything from a 2d space shoter to a full blown in process build from scratch MMO for about 400$.

Now will the MMO you end up building be generic ? you bet! Will the MMO you create be a full blown production value game ? no it wont but it will give you an idea of what all it takes to actualy do something like a MMO or games in general.

I have always though that some high end dev company should go along the way bethesda did with there ES games. Take a game like Darkfall for example. DF is a pretty good game. I really liked it but there were just a few flaws that drove me nuts. The grind, bugs with boats, etc

Now take that game with a Bethesda style construction set like they do for ES. Open it up to where a single person or a group of people for that matter could "rent" a server that they could use the construction kit to create the game the way they wanted it. Kind of like what they did with the Hero engine except with all the assets still in place. Once the server is ready the dev team for that server could launch it and the parent company they rent the server from gets x% of the profits of that server.

If you ask me that would be the way to go in the future as player created content is HUGE right now just look at the dungeon maker in EQ2, and hell even minecraft. The bottom line i dont expect the next great MMO to come from any massive company with a rediculous budget that produces a mediocre AAA title. With the ease of use of the current and future tech. I fully expect a group of friends with lots of spare time and the ability to either buy or make art assets will have the next best thing.

5 years to develope a game is just too long, by the time it is released you don't even want to play it anymore. I wish mmo developement companies would announce a game a year before release. 5 years from announcement to release is a hype killer.

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by maplestone

If nobody is making your dream game, make it yourself.

Making games is hella hard, especially if you are poor.

I never claimed it was easy.  But I think that whenever a person is feeling down about the state of worlds out there, it helps to sit down and actually think clearly about the obstacles and scale of work/organization required to make one of these behemoths happen.

If you use good middleware and gnu tools and you sacrifice on art assets and graphics its not actually that hard. Its mostly all about capital. Which is hardly shocking. Everything is about capital.

The hardest part of game design: a solid design, a flexible system

The most expensive part of game design: Art assets

 

This is the problem for most indie mmos and/or startups.

Getting art-assets is the most time-consuming and expensive part of any game. And visuals sell, its a fact.

I'm making a TCG/CCG atm and my ruleset is done and ready since last year january, but i only have one of 2 decks ready with art assets and i still need to launch with at least one booster.

If you don't work full-time on your project and are ready to fund it from your own pocket, it will take years to get all assets into the game. Even after i've figured out how to streamline asset-creation with various tricks I still spend at least one day on one card (thats one day of free-time, i.e. around 4h).

With modern games this workload tripples or even quadruples. Making just 30 unique character models for NPCs/mobs will already take you around half a year if you are doing it as a hobby, even if you cheat around it with tools like Makehuman for humanoids and buying ready-made environment assets like trees and rocks.

And thats without the UI, sound-design (which will be expected), scripting and prgramming.

 

Realistically, the only thing you can actually make as a single individual is a MUD, not an MMO.

Yes that is exactly what I mean. The part that has nothing to do with the game takes all the resources. I can make an MMO by myself, but it will have crappy art and limited features. Of course I will also have to shell out cash for the networking and systems software because that's a bitch to code.

Originally posted by Teikk

Its not impossible to create a MMO from scratch on the cheap these days with all the tools out there. i mean just take the guys over at 3d buzz. They sell online videos on programming anything from a 2d space shoter to a full blown in process build from scratch MMO for about 400$.

Now will the MMO you end up building be generic ? you bet! Will the MMO you create be a full blown production value game ? no it wont but it will give you an idea of what all it takes to actualy do something like a MMO or games in general.

I have always though that some high end dev company should go along the way bethesda did with there ES games. Take a game like Darkfall for example. DF is a pretty good game. I really liked it but there were just a few flaws that drove me nuts. The grind, bugs with boats, etc

Now take that game with a Bethesda style construction set like they do for ES. Open it up to where a single person or a group of people for that matter could "rent" a server that they could use the construction kit to create the game the way they wanted it. Kind of like what they did with the Hero engine except with all the assets still in place. Once the server is ready the dev team for that server could launch it and the parent company they rent the server from gets x% of the profits of that server.

If you ask me that would be the way to go in the future as player created content is HUGE right now just look at the dungeon maker in EQ2, and hell even minecraft. The bottom line i dont expect the next great MMO to come from any massive company with a rediculous budget that produces a mediocre AAA title. With the ease of use of the current and future tech. I fully expect a group of friends with lots of spare time and the ability to either buy or make art assets will have the next best thing.

well UDK is free and you can create a game like TERA if you so wanted , you can also read all the required material on youtube to create your own game ... it's 100% free until you makea certain cash treshold with it.

The real problem isn't that there is a lack of game it's that the expectation of people are so specialized that it's nearly impossible to fill their demands , a good example is the whole pvper hating on pver when the whole concept of mmorpg are based upon npc leveling .... the whole crowd that looks for fps action in the mmorpg is the biggest complainer there ever was because they can't seem to grasp what they are asking for is basically for 3/4 of the population to roleplay npc and let themselves get farmed... You can blame world of roguecraft for that i suppose.

Another thing is that people get so hyped for a game that when they finally receive it it's not anywhere near what they envisioned and are straigth up deceived with it ... Star wars is a very good example of that ( not that it's any good but people believed until the last moment it was gonna be good even tough we all knew deep down it was the macdonald's of the mmo)

Originally posted by Teikk

Its not impossible to create a MMO from scratch on the cheap these days with all the tools out there. i mean just take the guys over at 3d buzz. They sell online videos on programming anything from a 2d space shoter to a full blown in process build from scratch MMO for about 400$.

Now will the MMO you end up building be generic ? you bet! Will the MMO you create be a full blown production value game ? no it wont but it will give you an idea of what all it takes to actualy do something like a MMO or games in general.

I have always though that some high end dev company should go along the way bethesda did with there ES games. Take a game like Darkfall for example. DF is a pretty good game. I really liked it but there were just a few flaws that drove me nuts. The grind, bugs with boats, etc

Now take that game with a Bethesda style construction set like they do for ES. Open it up to where a single person or a group of people for that matter could "rent" a server that they could use the construction kit to create the game the way they wanted it. Kind of like what they did with the Hero engine except with all the assets still in place. Once the server is ready the dev team for that server could launch it and the parent company they rent the server from gets x% of the profits of that server.

If you ask me that would be the way to go in the future as player created content is HUGE right now just look at the dungeon maker in EQ2, and hell even minecraft. The bottom line i dont expect the next great MMO to come from any massive company with a rediculous budget that produces a mediocre AAA title. With the ease of use of the current and future tech. I fully expect a group of friends with lots of spare time and the ability to either buy or make art assets will have the next best thing.

Statements like these can only come from a person that has never touched game-design, programming, (3D) graphics design, or sound-design.

You can't even begin to fathom what it takes to create a halfway decent PC game. And by halfway decent i mean playable alpha.

If I had 10 cents every time I joined (on my free time mind you) an interesting game-project my friends wanted to do (or my friends friends cousins roommate) that never even got to the playable alpha stage.

Id have 1 dollar.

The last time I joined one was around 2 years ago, we had everything, engine, programmer, artist, sound-designer, etc.

 The "designer" that started the project nowadays works the nightshift at McDonalds, he never got any further than a txt-document with a feature-list.

PS: The ability and spare time is the last concern you need to worry about if you are making a PC game and involve more than 1 person.

It is my personal expierience that for as long as you do not pay a hard sallary or at least per commission, people don't take a "lets make a game"-project seriously at all, and it will never get off the ground, EVER.

Or you will need to find extremely dedicated people that you know on a deep personal level so you can guilt them into actually working on the shit you designed.

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by Teikk

Its not impossible to create a MMO from scratch on the cheap these days with all the tools out there. i mean just take the guys over at 3d buzz. They sell online videos on programming anything from a 2d space shoter to a full blown in process build from scratch MMO for about 400$.

Now will the MMO you end up building be generic ? you bet! Will the MMO you create be a full blown production value game ? no it wont but it will give you an idea of what all it takes to actualy do something like a MMO or games in general.

I have always though that some high end dev company should go along the way bethesda did with there ES games. Take a game like Darkfall for example. DF is a pretty good game. I really liked it but there were just a few flaws that drove me nuts. The grind, bugs with boats, etc

Now take that game with a Bethesda style construction set like they do for ES. Open it up to where a single person or a group of people for that matter could "rent" a server that they could use the construction kit to create the game the way they wanted it. Kind of like what they did with the Hero engine except with all the assets still in place. Once the server is ready the dev team for that server could launch it and the parent company they rent the server from gets x% of the profits of that server.

If you ask me that would be the way to go in the future as player created content is HUGE right now just look at the dungeon maker in EQ2, and hell even minecraft. The bottom line i dont expect the next great MMO to come from any massive company with a rediculous budget that produces a mediocre AAA title. With the ease of use of the current and future tech. I fully expect a group of friends with lots of spare time and the ability to either buy or make art assets will have the next best thing.

Statements like these can only come from a person that has never touched game-design, programming, (3D) graphics design, or sound-design.

You can't even begin to fathom what it takes to create a halfway decent PC game. And by halfway decent i mean playable alpha.

 

If I had 10 cents every time I joined (on my free time mind you) an interesting game-project my friends wanted to do (or my friends friends cousins roommate) that never even got to the playable alpha stage.

Id have 1 dollar.

 

The last time I joined one was around 2 years ago, we had everything, engine, programmer, artist, sound-designer, etc.

 The "designer" that started the project nowadays works the nightshift at McDonalds, he never got any further than a txt-document with a feature-list.

 

PS: The ability and spare time is the last concern you need to worry about if you are making a PC game and involve more than 1 person.

It is my personal expierience that for as long as you do not pay a hard sallary or at least per commission, people don't take a "lets make a game"-project seriously at all, and it will never get off the ground, EVER.

Or you will need to find extremely dedicated people that you know on a deep personal level so you can guilt them into actually working on the shit you designed.

Couldnt agree more with this, making a game is way more difficult than creating any other type of media.

I worked in QA for Rockstar North and seen what goes into making a game first hand.

I now work in a University and run Games Development labs and even after 5 years of studying game design / programming / art and so on most of the games the students create are complete trash.

People that think you just buy an engine and some assets and you have a game are deluded.

I think people are unfairly crapping all over World of Warcraft because seemingly every MMORPG dev is trying to copy or take inspiration from it.  That's not WoW's fault, that's everyone else's.  As a game dev, which route do you go?  The route that's gotten maybe a million sales at most, or the route that's gotten 12 million sales at most?  Granted 1 million isn't bad, but that's not a game that a dev studio is going to put a lot of money behind.  The Old Republic couldn't possibly take risks with such a massive development budget for example.

I've played WoW for 6 or 7 years.  Most of that time spent was raiding.  There was something very cool about raiding with 39 other people on Vent, having fun, joking around and talking while playing.  Then they scaled it back to 25 people and it was still fun.  My last raids were in 10-mans and still as fun as ever with a casual-minded group that didn't suck, and we joked around plenty while playing.  It was an interesting combination of social interaction and gaming that I haven't had before(and probably never will again).  It's much different than getting on a shooter and hearing nothing but trash talk and trolling and stupidness, it was more like having a group of real life friends gaming together.

I enjoyed the theme park-yness of WoW because I'm somebody that enjoys some focus in a game.  As an out-of-game example, I ordered a package of 11 yoga workouts.  It came with a book about nutrition and a bunch of other stuff.  Outlined in the book, it gives a 13-week outlook on which workouts to do on what days, 13 weeks for beginners, 13 weeks for intermediates and 13 weeks for advanced.  If there was no guide like this, I don't think I'd be as dedicated to it as I am now.  I like following guidelines and things like this, rather than making my own rules and discovering things.

That's not to say that I haven't enjoyed a sandbox world.  I have very fond memories of Graal Online when it was new at the time, and it allowed you to build onto its game world and make scripted events and quests and that sort of thing.  I believe it had to be approved by the folks that ran it before it was actually put into the game world but you could at least build it client-side for offline play.  The game had no direction.  It was basically The Legend Of Zelda: A Link To The Past Online, filled with heart containers and items scattered around the game world and you had to explore(or read up online) on where to find everything.  It had a unique PvP system, sort of like karma where if you didn't attack anybody, eventually your player name would get lighter and lighter until it was gold and no players could hit you.  If you PvP a lot and kill players, your name would get darker and darker and you'd have to wait longer to reach that unhittable state.  I was massively addicted to Graal at the time, I suppose partly because I love the NES and SNES so much(still do).

Originally posted by AdamTM

The most expensive part of game design: Art assets

Then this is an area where you simply have to accept from day one that you cannot outspend the big studios and not even try.  Even better, make art-generation a part of the game so that as your player base grows, so does the library of art available in the game.

( entire WoW continent implemented in Minecraft by a player )

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by AdamTM

The most expensive part of game design: Art assets

Then this is an area where you simply have to accept from day one that you cannot outspend the big studios and not even try.  Even better, make art-generation a part of the game so that as your player base grows, so does the library of art available in the game.

( entire WoW continent implemented in Minecraft by a player )

I think the first company that builds a decent engine not some buggy alpha state engine and gets user created content right will have a big hit on their hands. It just has so many positives in that it allows the devlopers to focus there main goals while allowing your user base to fill in the gaps. It also can satisfy the urge to build as one thing pc gaming has proved if nothing else is user created content can rival that of the devoloper if given the right tools.

Take a look at tor, and for those who are playing it, one of the bigger complaints is the amount of warzones in the game. If Bioware created a tool that allowed people to construct and submit their own warzones. Then Bioware picks one every week, and its added to the rotation, at the end of the week its voted on and if its popular it stays in the rotation if not its phased out. Bioware would never need to create another warzone again and even if they pick a horrible one that noone likes its only in the game for a week.

This kind of system would benefit a sandbox even more (not creating warzones or instanced anything but user created content in general) one of the bigger complaints we seen from most of the newer sandboxes is lack of content and to large a focus on zerg ffa pvp with little else to do in them. Allowing the player base to create content for these titles allows the devolopers to focus more on bug fixes and new features while there world gets content generated for free.

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by maplestone

If nobody is making your dream game, make it yourself.

Making games is hella hard, especially if you are poor.

I never claimed it was easy.  But I think that whenever a person is feeling down about the state of worlds out there, it helps to sit down and actually think clearly about the obstacles and scale of work/organization required to make one of these behemoths happen.

THAT is a piece of bad, borderline on absurb, advice.

A modern video game, even an indie one, needs a team (programming, art, graphics, deisgn ..) and lots of technical know-how. Assuming a random player would be anything close to have the skill set to make a full featured game, abate a good one, is just totally silly.

I think the OP needs to get a life. There are MANY alternatives of entertainment.

Brooding over some video games that may or may not happen .. is a waste of time.

BTW, i did not read the whole thing, i am one of those who are happy with the current state of themepark MMOs. In fact, if i am not entertained, i won't even be participating in a MMO forum. There is no point. Life has so many entertaining activities.

Originally posted by RabbiFang

TL; DR  -  Rant about the current state of MMOs. If you're currently happy with your theme park MMO, this is not for you. 

 

I've been a lurker here at MMORPG.com for as long as I can remember. In that time, I have learned one hugely important fact; I am not alone. MMORPG.com is essentially a home for the homeless; a refuge for those of us that are waiting for that perfect game that never comes. 

 

Don't get me wrong, there are exceptions to the rule. There are hundreds, if not thousands of MMORPG.com readers who have found what they consider to be their perfect game. To those people, I recommend you stop reading, and go back to grinding for gear in (INSERT THEMEPARK GAME NAME HERE). The rest of us are waiting; waiting endlessly for the next game to come along and let us down, only to be followed up by another  to come and excrete all over our dreams once again. 

 

I've been playing MMOs for as long as I can remember; certainly all of my late-teen and adult life. I'm not particularly 'hardcore' per-se; I'm 28 years old, married, I run two websites and work for myself from home as a programmer. This does, of course give me a reasonable amount of free time at my PC. FPS games don't cut it for me, and neither do MOBAs. I appreciate both of them for what they are, and actually play them from time to time, too. What I want from a game is simple. I want an MMORPG, in the traditional sense of the term. I want freedom. Freedom from the stresses of daily life, freedom to go anywhere and explore, freedom to fight the guy that's stealing my kills, and freedom to declare war on him and his friends if I should so desire. What I want, is a sandbox, and I am not alone. 

 

My history of MMOs is somewhat sandbox heavy. Back when I was 16 years old, I first discovered Ultima Online, and I played it on a 200Mhz Pentium pile of crap. Still, it ran, and it ran well. I loved that game; it had everything I wanted and a whole lot more. Let's face it though, for the past 8 years (at least), it's looked like crap. I simply had to move on. Nobody wants to play a game that's older than a fair percentage of the members of this forum. 

 

In 2002, I found Neocron. Neocron is a game many of you have probably never heard of, or if you have, you've never experienced its endgame...and what an endgame it was. I played Neocron's endgame for a few years alongside SW:G. It was so far ahead of its time that many of its features went totally un-noticed by the rest of the world, and certainly amongst MMORPG fans. It had multiple factions, inter-faction clan warfare, semi-open PvP, player looting, a punishment system, NPC cops that shot criminals on sight, player housing with full sandbox placement of furniture, drugs which enhanced performance, a huge open world without quests, flying vehicles, ground vehicles, swimming, an epic crafting system and territorial warfare which pitted rival clans against one another for control of outposts which earned revenue. Oh, and one of the best twitch combat systems I've ever had the pleasure of using.  /breathe.

 

I just listed all the functionality of a fantastic, modern, 3D sandbox game. My perfect game. But why did it do so badly? Well, that's simple; semi-incompetent developers (most of which have left the company now) and a lack of funding/advertising. Bugs were simply never fixed, and version 2.0 of the game essentially killed many of the aspects which made it such a fun and interesting game almost a decade ago. 

 

Since the relative death of Neocron's moderate success, I have lurked these forums, seeking out a replacement. When I first came to these forums, like many of you, I was baffled by the staggering amount of MMO games available. Simply put, I was overwhelmed - the perfect game simply HAD to be here. The sad part is, I've bought, downloaded and tried a huge proportion of them, including every major release you can name since WoW in 2003, to SWTOR in 2011. I even bought Darkfall, Mortal Online, Earthrise and Xsyon, hoping that one of these titles might have fill that empty sandbox void that Neocron and Ultima Online left inside of me all those years ago. Sadly, what I got instead was a proverbial bitch slap in the guise of great ideas, poor implementation and often shoddy, unfinished work. Darkfall came the closest for me, but that was utterly ruined by its ridiculous levelling system and grind, which forced people to AFK macro-power-level. THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIXED BY NOW. 

 

So, to my point. I seem to spend far, far more time waiting for the next MMO to come along and disappoint me than I do actually playing MMO games. That's sad, in it self, and says a hell of a lot for an industry which could be so much more than it is right now. Currently, I'm eagerly awaiting Diablo III, Archeage and Planetside 2, and I have a close eye on Tera and TSW. Which of those games will let me down? All of them? three of them? Who knows, but I'm almost certain we'll all be  back here in twelve months time, waiting. 

 

Hear me, developers. Stop holding our hands like we're mindless, merry little morons. Stop feeding us linear quest after linear quest, and forcing us to grind dungeons for PvP gear. In fact, forget you ever played WoW and forget everything that it taught you. That's right, everything. Build a virtual world, from scratch that we can play in, and ultimately control as the inhabitants of said world. Is that really too much to ask?

 

This industry should be full of game companies competing for our business, each trying to entice players away from their current, deserved MMO addiction.  What we have in reality is companies feeding us the same old regurgitated crap, time and time again; each of them hoping for a somewhat moderate user retention level so that they can pay their whopping development bills, which were invariably racked up on the wrong areas of game development. 

 

Theme parks, I hate you.

WoW, I hate you.

Devs, you're doing it wrong. 

 

/end cynical rant.

 

I approve of this message.

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by AdamTM

The most expensive part of game design: Art assets

Then this is an area where you simply have to accept from day one that you cannot outspend the big studios and not even try.  Even better, make art-generation a part of the game so that as your player base grows, so does the library of art available in the game.

( entire WoW continent implemented in Minecraft by a player )

Partially right.

But not applicable to the suggestions in this thread. 

Minecraft is not an MMORPG, and it never will be if its going to run the netcode its running now, its just a technical limitation.

We also need to remember that Notch (with <3) did not create Minecraft out of thin air and genius. Dwarf Fortress gave the basic framework of game-mechanics and Infiniminer gave the graphics, and then he applied his voxel-fetish. Also he had experience on working with Wurm Online.

Minecraft was just small enough project to be managable by one person, and it still took -YEARS- of alpha to get it released in any fashion whatsoever.

Miner Wars is a supposed to be a MMORPG with similar aspirations as Minecraft, but it has a 1 million dollar investment and over 20 professionals working on it.

There is a huge jump between "make a game" and "make an MMO". To expect any one person to be able to do this on their own, or with a shoestring budget, is assinine.

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by AdamTM

The most expensive part of game design: Art assets

Then this is an area where you simply have to accept from day one that you cannot outspend the big studios and not even try.  Even better, make art-generation a part of the game so that as your player base grows, so does the library of art available in the game.

( entire WoW continent implemented in Minecraft by a player )

Partially right.

But not applicable to the suggestions in this thread. 

Minecraft is not an MMORPG, and it never will be if its going to run the netcode its running now, its just a technical limitation.

We also need to remember that Notch (with <3) did not create Minecraft out of thin air and genius. Dwarf Fortress gave the basic framework of game-mechanics and Infiniminer gave the graphics, and then he applied his voxel-fetish. Also he had experience on working with Wurm Online.

Minecraft was just small enough project to be managable by one person, and it still took -YEARS- of alpha to get it released in any fashion whatsoever.

Miner Wars is a supposed to be a MMORPG with similar aspirations as Minecraft, but it has a 1 million dollar investment and over 20 professionals working on it.

 

There is a huge jump between "make a game" and "make an MMO". To expect any one person to be able to do this on their own, or with a shoestring budget, is assinine.

 

I can make a text based mmo with php and mysql quite easily, even maps using image maps and same for buildings and crap. But that is nothing like creating an mmo with 3d or even 2d graphics and animation.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by AdamTM

The most expensive part of game design: Art assets

Then this is an area where you simply have to accept from day one that you cannot outspend the big studios and not even try.  Even better, make art-generation a part of the game so that as your player base grows, so does the library of art available in the game.

( entire WoW continent implemented in Minecraft by a player )

Partially right.

But not applicable to the suggestions in this thread. 

Minecraft is not an MMORPG, and it never will be if its going to run the netcode its running now, its just a technical limitation.

We also need to remember that Notch (with <3) did not create Minecraft out of thin air and genius. Dwarf Fortress gave the basic framework of game-mechanics and Infiniminer gave the graphics, and then he applied his voxel-fetish. Also he had experience on working with Wurm Online.

Minecraft was just small enough project to be managable by one person, and it still took -YEARS- of alpha to get it released in any fashion whatsoever.

Miner Wars is a supposed to be a MMORPG with similar aspirations as Minecraft, but it has a 1 million dollar investment and over 20 professionals working on it.

 

There is a huge jump between "make a game" and "make an MMO". To expect any one person to be able to do this on their own, or with a shoestring budget, is assinine.

 

I can make a text based mmo with php and mysql quite easily, even maps using image maps and same for buildings and crap. But that is nothing like creating an mmo with 3d or even 2d graphics and animation.

Yes, but since the OP left UO because of the aging graphics, i didn't think thats relevant at all. I'm talking, as always, in the context of the thread.

What people here usually say is that they do not want MUDs (as i stated before, thats an obtainable goal) but they want a good looking sandbox/game with modern graphics and gameplay. 

Then coming in and saying "just make it yourself" is completely silly.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by RabbiFang

Originally posted by jpnz

If only the 'waiting' actually were subscribing and supporting this industry.

The 'silent' crowd doesn't show up anywhere and companies can not define them or know how many there are.

Preaching over the internet is fine but to put actual $$$, well, make one yourself or support one that's the cloest to your ideal MMO.

Otherwise, why should anyone listen to you?

Firstly, I do support this industry; more so than most I bet. You've clearly not read my post properly. I have purchased pretty much every MMO to be released over the past 5 years, and I am currently subbed to 6, including those closest to that which I consider to be my ideal MMO.

The 'make one yourself' argument is getting old. I'm a Java/PHP developer that develops websites and software for smartphones, I am no game developer. Even if I was, I wouldn't have the time to put into the project with all the side businesses I run. 

The fact is, there are always impressive looking games on the horizon, many of which continue to let us down in a big way. The industry looked so bright back in 2002, and here we are, a decade later, still recovering from the WoW effect. 

Why should anyone listen to me? Well, why shouldn't they?

 

 I can see where you're coming from but if there were ever a case of being part of the problem and not part of the solution you're it. Developers follow the money and you're sending mixed messages.

I love this ludicrous assertion that we should be spending our money to "support" an industry that doesn't even provide us with a game we enjoy playing.   I speak with my money by putting it into things I actually enjoy.  I'm not going to search for and subscribe to some half-baked game that is somewhat similar to what I want, but not enough to be worth playing.  THAT is sending mixed message if anything is.

At any rate, we are seeing a bit of a paradigm change right now, and I thank SWTOR for it.  I think almost *everyone*, including Bioware's competitors expected TOR to be a huge winner.  You saw it in all of the reviews that game out a week after launch talking about how this game was a 90%+ amazing mmo when clearly it is not, and it has major problems on more levels than I care to think about anymore.

Since SWTOR is not the 'wow-killer" the industry seemingly thought it would be, I think people are starting to get a clue that there is no such thing.  Any game developer who is thinking they are going to see anything more than 1 million players subbing to their game is out of their minds.   I think it's time everyone gets  back to reality and realizes that an MMO game should be honored to have 500,000 dedicated players, and that should be a strong measure of business success.  If they get more, then good for them. If they pull down 1 or 2 million players, then their game is an off-the-charts success. WoW was an anomaly, a perfect storm of timing and events, and while we may see another one happen in the future, you can bet winners like that will be no less than a decade apart from each other.  

Does anyone think CCP is hurting for money with 300,000 (or so) players?  Do the math on that with a $15 sub fee.  As a business owner myself, I would be crapping my pants to have that kind of monthly money coming in, and they have enough money and backing that they are still releasing free expansions to EVE every year, getting ready to release DUST, and they are working on WoD.  I personally believe that CCP has the most realistic business model in the whole MMO industry. This isn't to say that there will be no wild successes to come, but to build a game with the goal of five or ten million subscribers in mind is completely unrealistic.

I believe developers need to get back to competing with each other on featurees and start looking more into niche-type markets for their MMOs rather than trying to go head to head with each other in some insane bid to rach ten million subscribers with a mediocre clone game.  They should find something to make their own and build a dedicated core of players who will stay with the game for years rather than months, as seems to be the norm today with these uninspiring offerings. It's time to get real.

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by AdamTM

The most expensive part of game design: Art assets

Then this is an area where you simply have to accept from day one that you cannot outspend the big studios and not even try.  Even better, make art-generation a part of the game so that as your player base grows, so does the library of art available in the game.

( entire WoW continent implemented in Minecraft by a player )

Partially right.

But not applicable to the suggestions in this thread. 

Minecraft is not an MMORPG, and it never will be if its going to run the netcode its running now, its just a technical limitation.

We also need to remember that Notch (with <3) did not create Minecraft out of thin air and genius. Dwarf Fortress gave the basic framework of game-mechanics and Infiniminer gave the graphics, and then he applied his voxel-fetish. Also he had experience on working with Wurm Online.

Minecraft was just small enough project to be managable by one person, and it still took -YEARS- of alpha to get it released in any fashion whatsoever.

Miner Wars is a supposed to be a MMORPG with similar aspirations as Minecraft, but it has a 1 million dollar investment and over 20 professionals working on it.

 

There is a huge jump between "make a game" and "make an MMO". To expect any one person to be able to do this on their own, or with a shoestring budget, is assinine.

 

I can make a text based mmo with php and mysql quite easily, even maps using image maps and same for buildings and crap. But that is nothing like creating an mmo with 3d or even 2d graphics and animation.

Yes, but since the OP left UO because of the aging graphics, i didn't think thats relevant at all. I'm talking, as always, in the context of the thread.

What people here usually say is that they do not want MUDs (as i stated before, thats an obtainable goal) but they want a good looking sandbox/game with modern graphics and gameplay. 

Then coming in and saying "just make it yourself" is completely silly.

I was agreeing with you and offering my own experience to back it up.

Meh I really REALLY hate the thing about this site where people cant seem to cut the part of what ever they are wanting to reply to out of the message so you get an entire screen of entire posts quoted right after the other.  Anyway to reply to the guy oo 2 pages ago or so that said my previous post was pretty much null because i have never done any kind of game design.

On the contrary i have done quite a bit of research as well as practical use of game engines such as

http://unity3d.com/unity/

I have tried several but this is the one i find the easiest to use as well as the most efficent for someone like myself who has little to no artistic skill and basic coding skills so far. Even with this limitation i have been quite easily to follow and complete several shall we say ... tutorial projects...

http://www.burgzergarcade.com/hack-slash-rpg-unity3d-game-engine-tutorial <--- Complete SPRPG Step by Step

this guy isnt as high quality as 3d buzz but he gets the point across.

These guys however

http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/sv_home.php

Have MANY MANY high quality training videos as well as the MMO training series i was telling you about in my  previous post.

Now as i have said these things are very time consuming but completely possible as i have completed several of the tutorials myself and have learned quite a bit about c# and the way games function. I am by no means a master game designer or programmer or artist BUT i have finished and everything i have finished was quite playable.

The problem i have is that if someone makes a grandiose claim that anyone can make a MMO for little cash ( if you make your own art) is that im some how i dont know..... underappreciating you or something with your elitest view. Kinda like the way people that use  this

http://usa.autodesk.com/

instead of

http://www.blender.org/

which completely open source and can do just about anything the previous can.

My conclusion is that the only reason we do not see more inde games is that i think it boils down to a simple reason.

Game development = lots of time and some cash for assets

People with the cash to buy what they need weather that be code or assets do not have the time do make a MMO

People with the time to make an MMO do not have the cash flow to afford the things they need.

Now if you make cash and give up your job or what ever it is you do to get the cash to make a game you dont have that cash flow anymore so you end up in the second .. enough time but no  money

if you give up time to make money you end up back in the first stage so its kind of like a vicious circle you get stuck in lol.