General Discussion

The source of the problem is not if WAR is the clone of WoW or not. The most competitive games that are released or in production are feeling the necessity to repeat or imitate some successful aspects of previously released games. I believe there is nothing wrong with that. Having played WoW for 4 years, played AoC for 3 months, and now playing WAR beta for a few days. I see the good and bad parts in all those three games.

Folks, I've played UO for 10 years, still playing it in some free server, then played DAoC and ShadowBane for 3-4 years each before WoW and WoW-alike games. In my experience, I find WAR and AoC considerably similar to WoW in respects of talents, leveling and grind based system. WAR's PvP, PvM, even its RvR system are not satisfactorily revolutionizing the genre. If you are expecting anything of such novelty, you will not find it in WAR. What will you find in WAR? WAR is an evolution; a much better PvP then WoW, much stable version of AoC, still the same leveling and grind issues even if it's less PvE oriented.

However, your concerns and the behavior of seeking for some change from the main-stream MMORPG is well understood. You're tired of the same UI, where you see the minimap, a console which just helps you choose from your available skills in which in order to kill a mob, all you have to do is stand close to it, and click, wait for its cooldown timer, then click another skill, and this goes on and on and on. We're so used to this same rotation of clicks that we call this PvP now.

What happened to aiming, timing your own swings or shots yourself, moving, rolling mouse so that your sword will collide with  your opponent, blocking him phsyically so he will not run through you and escape? Slicing your own comrade accidentally, or healing your opponent? Attacking anyone, anywhere.. No forced boundaries, no illogical limitations on what to attack..

At the end, who wins a fight in these main-stream game PvPs?

First and foremost, you have to have the best equipment, epics/purples/rares.. what ever you wanna call them.. You need them to survive when facing versus another opponent with the same level equipment, otherwise most of the time you stand no chance. How do you get it? You have to grind dungeons (or battlegrounds). At the end, you'll spend excessive amounts of time to get these required items, that's a given fact. It's so sad that everyone is so accustomed to this fact, that equipment in a game is so much higher in our priorities list. What I don't understand is, so many of you don't even question the fact that you're playing for that uber equipment during the whole game, and rate a game if it also gives you any entertainment in the meanwhile or not. So, the fun factor while your grinding comes after the "grinding" in your priorities list when "grinding" (not playing) a game.

How would a revolutionary game overcome grinding? By making the game less item oriented, and base it on the player skill. A revolutionary game should not be based on equipment, PvP should not be decided by the best weapon/armor or by the level of the character, it should be decided by the "skill" of the player. Don't feel bad if you wanna spend your many hours to be better at PvP, you'll still be successful if you've spent 40 hours weekly to get there. The difference is, you've improved yourself, not your toons equipment. You've spent time to improve your skills to control your swings to meet your opponent, or your skill to aim with your character. You should enjoy killing other players who may have acquired that better equipment with no skill, if you have the player skill and know how to use the skills of your character, you should be able to beat any end game character if he is not skilled enough to beat you. You should be able to loot your opponents freely, and if you brought your expensive sword to the fight and got killed, face the consequences. Wouldn't that give us a risk management? A revolutionary game should force us to take these kinds of decision when PvP'ing, that is what's called "hardcore".

What else you need to survive in PvP in these main-stream games? You have to know your enemy, since they are from one of several given classes (namely, the tank, the healer, and the ranged/melee DPS guy), it's easy to understand what type of enemy they are by their looks. How funny is that? Well, if that doesn't help, you can always check their health bars, because it is written there for you. Great. Now that you know what level your enemy is (so you know his capabilities/DPS rate and how much health and mana he/she has), and you have to be within 5 levels of that guy if you really stand any chance to beat him, it is now the time to remember how to counter him/her with your given talents. We're calling this PvP? Doesn't that feel more like a card game, anyone watched one of those Asian cartoons (ie. Picachu - my 5 year old cuisine likes them); just a little bit more complex when all the classes and talent trees considered in these "PvP" games. You don't need any personal hand skills, you don't even have to move your toon around in the world most of the time, perhaps except for the time when you need to keep a distance from your opponent. Click the right button when its cool down is over, and watch your opponent die - or in other words, "I've picked you Picachu - go get'em" when its 30 second cool down is over. The level system fails so bad that you stand no chance against some "MMORPG disabled person" if he is 5 levels above you. If you're a healer, you are stuck to healing. what about hybrids, what about other gaming styles that are not enforced by the game designers? Why are we not allowed to select our own set of skills from a pool, and see if its working better? If you're a warrior (tank etc), how stupid is it that you are not equipped with some healing skills/spells? Why have we been limited to this idioticity? Stray away from the common classes and find out if you fail miserably or develop a unique playing style which only fits you, not the other several thousands who followed the exact same talent tree, have the exact same equipment sets and use the same tactic for the same opponent class. You see how limiting that is?

Just take a look at your favorite toon in your favorite game, and tell me that it's unique.. other than its name and the way his facial hair/horns or skin looks. Everyone wants that uber tier set only designed for their class.. Wooo, such a big deal.. You and the rest of all the other several thousands of players (or millions in WoW) who have the same class will eventually own that set, or dream about owning it. And you'll be so unique, stand different among others.. Is it a joke that all 10 million WoW players are looking forward to get that one single epic set designed for their own character that will finally give them "the edge"? We really need a revolution! We need a game that will set us free of these item based worlds.

The game world you're given; a lot of junk quests that you're forced to move around the map (most of them useless grinds). Take a look at your map in your favorite MMORPG, can you see the roads? You're most likely to follow them, or you'll hit a hidden wall/mountain that is impassable, that you have to move around them to get a quest/grind done. Are you aware that there is a level requirement for each of those areas, that if you try passing through that region as a lowbie, you're as good as dead. Don't you see how the developers herding you around the maps to get what they want to be done. How fun! We have instances in these games that takes away from any dangerous interactions with the rest of the world, you and the select few mobs, or you and the select few other players. Thanks for covering our backs developers.. Thanks for limiting our freedom of interaction. Why do they need these instances, or these hidden walls? Because the game is based on levels.. The herding is required, becuase you won't stand a chance against a mob 10 levels above you, cause the game is not based on your personal skills. Because, you can't be successful in these games if you have not spend 150 hours with that specific character, even if you've spend other 1500 hours with another character in the same account. These games unfortunatly have no memory, your player skill matter just a little bit. Your toon is everything (and the item you hold with him), and the experience you as a player gained playing the game means "nothing".  In the next generation game, when you really know the game, you won't have to be considered as a newbie when you are playing another low level alt, when you really mastered a character, you should master your own player skill on that game. Therefore when you start a new character, you'll be limited less to your toon, since the game will be more player skill oriented and not level or equipment of the character. Therefore, even your opponent has created his character two days ago, you'll ve careful and not be decieved of his looks, you'll have more dangerous opponents, and the armor or weapon he uses is less of a signifier of his threat level. Isn't that more exciting? The revolutionary game should take the instances away from the map as well as the hidden walls. Therefore, the same crowd should share and fight for the limited amount of mob resource a server has to offer. You want a hardcore game, there you go.

The uber items? How about if you could create them? What is wrong with these main-stream games' crafting limitations? How come we suppose to grind all month for that epic set? If we're playing this game, and we're using those items, how come we can't craft them? Doesn't that take a lot from a game for the role playing gamers who like to play crafters? In a revolutionary game, the crafters should be capable of crafting any endgame item that a character needs. Purples? Epics? No more soul items. You should be able to loose them (or loot them from other players), but you should easily buy or craft them back as well. That is how a game would be less item based. Two birds in one stone; give the crafters all the freedom AND the respect they deserve, and save the players from this cursed grinding mentality. Perfect solution for two huge problems!

What is RvR if you can not control and destroy other sides castle, keep or houses? And again, why are you enforced in to which realm you will be part of? Oh, because of the limited race and class system. I want a game that can let me be who I want to be, not be dependent on the race I choose, I should still become part of that alignment I fell I belong to, if I want to be able to kill my own race, I should be given that freedom - facing the penalty of being hunted by my race. I want to see epic battles/sieges that changes the politics and regional controls of the map I'm playing in. There should be sieging weapons and huge ships for naval battles and they should be controlled by players that can hold 100s of players at a time and sail around the world, attack coastal fortresses and take them over. That is way past RvR, such a system would be much more dynamic, because players would decide where a realm starts and ends, not the developers. They decide on their alignments, they decide which race they should let into their clans, and which clans/races to fight against.

Every new game in this new genre will claim that they are different, unfortunately, big companies play towards a WoW player base. AoC failed, WAR did what WoW could do in WoW2.

Now if you're looking for a revolution, you have to look into other games by independent companies; the best and the foremost example that I'm looking forward to play now is Darkfall. All the problems I've addressed, and revolutionary ideas/solutions I've mentioned in this post that are different from the main-stream MMORPGs are a few of the many countless Darkfall features, and they are realizing their promises as you can see in their videos.

Aventurine, the developers of Darkfall have officially announced a release date for the "first time" in 7 years of their game development (7 years can easily be considered common when compared to other MMORPG games), and the release will be the end of 2008. The beta will begin in October, and you can sign in their website: Darkfallonline.com. They've also released a 17 minute gameplay video recently, and you can download it from their website as well.

Thanks for reading, and good luck on your ventures of seeking the next MMORPG you've been looking for, hopefully you will also check in to Darkfall.

Viva la Darkfall.  A truly revolutionary game. 

Wall of text is long, but yes I agree. There has been a severe shortage of Darkfall-type games over the past few years.

Nice wall of text.

For the record, nobody knows if Darkfall will be any good.  How many in-development games were thought to be the "second coming" and then fell flat on their faces?

Darkfall does have a great set of features for hardcore sandbox fans, and I want to see it succeed as much as the next person.  We can all hope for the best, but honestly, the odds are against it, so don't get your hopes up.  Sooner or later, someone will make it.

I am the only person who is sick of hearing the hype from darkfall fanbois (AkA: darkfellows).  Can't you darkfellows keep your darkfall post on the dark fellow forum?

Originally posted by FreddyNoNose

I am the only person who is sick of hearing the hype from darkfall fanbois (AkA: darkfellows).  Can't you darkfellows keep your darkfall post on the dark fellow forum?

C'mon, when will you people just give it up and believe?  Get over yourself and your lack of faith.

Can't you see that Darkfall is going to kick WoW in the shins and then decapitate it like the little bitch that it is?

I mean, in Darkfall, they spell "Orc" with a "k" ("Ork").  That's so friggin' genius and original I can hardly contain myself.  How can they possibly fail with creativity like that?  What more do you want?  Proof? 

I fully agree with the op.  Unfortunately the majority of gamers these days do not.

They like their grinds.

They like their epic lootz.

They like being herded.

They don't want risk.

They don't want to think.

They don't want actual skill to be the deciding factor in pvp.

Sad but true :(

AoC didn't fail because it innovated.  It had a great launch but is going down the toilet because of horrible execution.

The same can be said about just about every other game that supposedly innovated, the possible exception being Eve.

At the end of the day, Darkfall will be successful if it delivers 75% of what it has promised, and does so with polish and reliability.  If it doesn't do that, it will fail, just like 80% of other MMOs that are released.