General Discussion

Originally posted by tvalentine

the community

BINGO!

You hit the nail right on the head.  It's not the games or the developers.  It's the community.  

If the game isn't what someone THINKS it should be, or if it's not exactly what they wanted or expected... it becomes a flamefest.

Then there's the famous people who love their game so much, they'll spend as much time as possible trying to flame the newest game out in the hopes that the community doesn't go flying to the new one and leave the other game in the dust.

You'd have to be crazy to be working in the MMO industry today.  It's one of the most self-centered and rudest communities out there.

I'd say the biggest problem is that they are not made for those who want to play the games. They are made for the masses that just want to be better than the next guy and wants to win (win what, that I do not know).

Many games have been decent or even good in Beta, but when finally released and after few months of patches they have been downgraded so that the 10-year olds can also play them with their eyes closed. There is no real achievements to be had (it is not achievement to be able to kill same mobs million times over, thus getting to the top level) and it seems that majority of the most vocal "players" want it that way. They whine that it is too hard etc etc and then devs make it easier. Why? Because that is the majority of what their forum users are saying. Sure that "majority" is actually not so great, but the real players do not bother to read or post in the games forums, because it is filled with whining jerks most of the time.

I myself like the adventure and journey to get to the end. The end is not the goal of mine, but the journey is where the fun is, and end is just something that will happen someday.

Personally I've always found it funny that pepple try to blame the current status on MMO's to graphical emphisis.  This makes about as much sense as most of the MMO's devs.

The artist that develop this part of an MMO (or any game) don't have anything to do with the rest of the design.  Its a non factor on the overall design of the game.  If you want to look at limited customer base due to requirements... then... ok.

Ever notice something about the MMO industry?  Such as 90%+ of the games are copying the exact same formula.  Toss in the fact that some copy it better than others.  Do any of these people even know why they are going with that formula?

EQ1 had more subscribers than UO... back in the days when 450,000 subs was "huge".  Well to be technical that's probably more than most MMO's release in North America will ever see.

But no one ever sits down and says ok what were the inherent flaws with that design...

Many things bother me in MMO's today.

No community building.  After a while a repetitive game with no real social interaction (or need for it) will just become stale and stagnent.

To many follow the "uber gear" and raid formula.  There isn't anything at the core wrong with raiding.  However, no one wants to raid for nothing.  This entire design is why crafting sucks in almost all MMO's released in recent years.  Why would you buy something that isn't as good as you can get raiding... or through whatever system eclipses player made items.

Prices on player made items tend to become high enough that no one wants to buy them anyway.  aka the broken player economy.  This isn't because of "gold farmers" it is due to horrible designs that actually promote gold farmers.. whether its intended or not.

In fact.. if you are goiing to use this design why add player crafting at all.  WAR kind of took this concept but didn't do it quite right (crafting needs some work).  By this I mean the only crafts they have use consumable items.. aka potions and talismans.   Trying to create demand for player made items by the simple reason they are... consumables.  Thus keeping demand on the market through all tiers/levels.

^^ That is what crafting will become if they stay with this design.  Yes I focused a lot on crafting for two reasons.

1) They waste resources (in general for all mmo's) on a player action that has no long term sustained use.

2) My first MMO was Ultima Online which had one of the best crafting / player economies.

I guess since this is getting long I'll just add this:

The other problem is the entire "level" system design (being the key difference between UO and EQ).  There were no set classes or levels in UO.. you had 700 skill points (when it was released) to spend across all the skills in the game as you wished.

The level design I call the pie system.  Simply because as people level up they become trapped at the crust.  So the developers add an expansion.. which increases the size of the pie.  Over the course of expansions as this continually moves outward.. you end up with this large dead area in the middle.

No one goes there because they are either pushing to be trapped at the outside... or are already trapped (yet again waiting for another expansion).  That's when people talk about "empty newb zones".

In a skill based game you didn't have this issue because.. there were no levels.  Nothing ever turned grey and even "noob" mobs could kill you in the right circumstances.

People pushed out as their skills increased but there was always worth while things in that old "newb area".  Resources to be harvested etc...

Short answer:  The problem with most MMO's on the market is the design system they decide to follow.

Altho I also like to look at another standard I've seen now.

Players aka customers say they want A, B and C.

Developer says.. you are just looking through rose colored glasses and gives C, D and E... game fails.. developer wonders why.. must be the consumers fault for not understanding the game.

Couldn't possibly be that the Developers vision didn't match what the consumer wanted... or asked for.

Originally posted by Antarious

The other problem is the entire "level" system design (being the key difference between UO and EQ).  There were no set classes or levels in UO.. you had 700 skill points (when it was released) to spend across all the skills in the game as you wished.

The level design I call the pie system.  Simply because as people level up they become trapped at the crust.  So the developers add an expansion.. which increases the size of the pie.  Over the course of expansions as this continually moves outward.. you end up with this large dead area in the middle.

No one goes there because they are either pushing to be trapped at the outside... or are already trapped (yet again waiting for another expansion).  That's when people talk about "empty newb zones".

 

I would also prefer a skill based system.  However, with the level based MMOs I think a big part of the issue is how linear the zones are now.  Nearly every zone has a very defined, narrow level range and it ends up creating a bland, sterile world.  Theres no reason to go back to lower level zones and theres little reason for lower level players to venture out to the more dangerous zones.

Originally posted by Antarious

Personally I've always found it funny that pepple try to blame the current status on MMO's to graphical emphisis.  This makes about as much sense as most of the MMO's devs.

The artist that develop this part of an MMO (or any game) don't have anything to do with the rest of the design.  Its a non factor on the overall design of the game.  If you want to look at limited customer base due to requirements... then... ok.

Ever notice something about the MMO industry?  Such as 90%+ of the games are copying the exact same formula.  Toss in the fact that some copy it better than others.  Do any of these people even know why they are going with that formula?

EQ1 had more subscribers than UO... back in the days when 450,000 subs was "huge".  Well to be technical that's probably more than most MMO's release in North America will ever see.

But no one ever sits down and says ok what were the inherent flaws with that design...

Many things bother me in MMO's today.

No community building.  After a while a repetitive game with no real social interaction (or need for it) will just become stale and stagnent.

To many follow the "uber gear" and raid formula.  There isn't anything at the core wrong with raiding.  However, no one wants to raid for nothing.  This entire design is why crafting sucks in almost all MMO's released in recent years.  Why would you buy something that isn't as good as you can get raiding... or through whatever system eclipses player made items.

Prices on player made items tend to become high enough that no one wants to buy them anyway.  aka the broken player economy.  This isn't because of "gold farmers" it is due to horrible designs that actually promote gold farmers.. whether its intended or not.

In fact.. if you are goiing to use this design why add player crafting at all.  WAR kind of took this concept but didn't do it quite right (crafting needs some work).  By this I mean the only crafts they have use consumable items.. aka potions and talismans.   Trying to create demand for player made items by the simple reason they are... consumables.  Thus keeping demand on the market through all tiers/levels.

^^ That is what crafting will become if they stay with this design.  Yes I focused a lot on crafting for two reasons.

1) They waste resources (in general for all mmo's) on a player action that has no long term sustained use.

2) My first MMO was Ultima Online which had one of the best crafting / player economies.

 

I guess since this is getting long I'll just add this:

The other problem is the entire "level" system design (being the key difference between UO and EQ).  There were no set classes or levels in UO.. you had 700 skill points (when it was released) to spend across all the skills in the game as you wished.

The level design I call the pie system.  Simply because as people level up they become trapped at the crust.  So the developers add an expansion.. which increases the size of the pie.  Over the course of expansions as this continually moves outward.. you end up with this large dead area in the middle.

No one goes there because they are either pushing to be trapped at the outside... or are already trapped (yet again waiting for another expansion).  That's when people talk about "empty newb zones".

In a skill based game you didn't have this issue because.. there were no levels.  Nothing ever turned grey and even "noob" mobs could kill you in the right circumstances.

People pushed out as their skills increased but there was always worth while things in that old "newb area".  Resources to be harvested etc...

 

Short answer:  The problem with most MMO's on the market is the design system they decide to follow.

 

Altho I also like to look at another standard I've seen now.

 

Players aka customers say they want A, B and C.

Developer says.. you are just looking through rose colored glasses and gives C, D and E... game fails.. developer wonders why.. must be the consumers fault for not understanding the game.

Couldn't possibly be that the Developers vision didn't match what the consumer wanted... or asked for.

If the game is designed first and the world is built around the design, the game works. It doesn't really matter if the graphics are the best but hey if the game has that special magic to keep a player interested and great graphics, I certainly don't think anyone would complain.

A game designed around an engine with the graphics and lack of a good rule set is just not going to make the game good.

/agree

Most games are a copy of the same tried and true formula. hell, there are books and books on the subject. Those game designs that go against that formula are a bigger risk and in todays world not many investors will risk their money. those that have time to develop those new formulas and design those games are the ones that do not have to concern themselves with the almighty dollar simply because they don't have anything to loose.

Many players want many different things and some games deliver. DAoC was one game that kept me in for the longest simply because it had a good mix. I have many good memories of the fun stuff in that game. Only reason I stopped playing was I ran the course. Six years of one game off and on is a pretty good if you ask me. EQ2 Was another off and on that lasted from release to just this last March.

Even those games lack something and I guess that is why some of us start pushing a new formula out with a 'gasp' pencil and calculator.

Originally posted by JonMichael

Originally posted by tvalentine

the community

 

BINGO!

You hit the nail right on the head.  It's not the games or the developers.  It's the community.  

If the game isn't what someone THINKS it should be, or if it's not exactly what they wanted or expected... it becomes a flamefest.

Then there's the famous people who love their game so much, they'll spend as much time as possible trying to flame the newest game out in the hopes that the community doesn't go flying to the new one and leave the other game in the dust.

You'd have to be crazy to be working in the MMO industry today.  It's one of the most self-centered and rudest communities out there.

 

I agree with both comments, 100%. This is a huge downfall for the gaming world today. Mmorpg's use to be so fun and the community use to be filled with gamers who loved the game for what it was. Ever since Wow came out the gaming community has expanded from mature to immature. We've got new gamers on here who use to just play console games that now play mmorpg's thanks to World Of Warcraft. Wow being on southpark, wow having actual commericals, etc.... there are alot of new gamers who've never ever touched any games on the PC until Wow came along. Atleast that's my opinion. Gaming communities are ruined thanks to Wow and everyone compares games now to Wow. Why? It's not necessarily that wow was the 1st greatest game of mmorpg history, hell no. It's the fact that it had the most population so quickly. Why? The hype. Warhammer had a ton of hype, if not more then Wow. It has years to grow. But to me, it's been there done that kind of a game and I'm not resubscribing.

I'm sick of the immature communities. That's why I have respect for games such as Second Life, Neocron, Ryzom, and others that have small communities, have had problems in the past, or are like real life where the community is mature. Where they actually want to help new players to the game. Oh I miss the old days of gaming where players were actually friendly. Nowadays on communties such as wow everyone's just dicks to everyone else. Wow has by far the worst community I've ever seen. Full of Immature punks that walk around like they own the game because they have the best gear, not willing to help anyone. eh....bla bla bla right?

Originally posted by gorecki

What's wrong with MMOs today?

1.  WoW -- I've spent my share of time playing WoW and enjoyed it, but it's killing the industry.  Most companies capable of producing a big-budget MMO look at WoW's subscription numbers and tell their developers "do that!".  It is the root of many of the following problems.

2.  Too easy -- MMOs are sliding towards risk-free cakewalks, where there is little to no penalty for doing things the wrong way.  Death is a temporary debuff and minor inconvenience.  Questing is simplified so greatly that an NPC explains to you in painfully clear detail what to do, shows you exactly on your map where to go, you are guided by a floating arrow to get there, and tooltips show you precisely what to kill or gather.  Despie this, most quests are of the "bring me X of item Y"...incredible creativity there!  Combat no longer requires skill.  Gear is so