General Discussion

A la WoW, EQ2, WAR, AOC, Vanguard, LoTRO, etc.

This is getting insane. All those games are very simple. Perhaps the most complex being WoW(how sad is that?). WAR really let me down. Its dumbed down worse than WoW is.

Is there no hope for at least one game going back to the roots of MMO?  You had to work for rewards, being max level actually meant something, dying wasn't considered a quick way back to town, exploration was exciting, learning the map meant you wrote it down or memorized it in your head.

I miss camping for that item, I miss taking days to do one quest, I miss getting pissed that I died, I miss getting getting killed by an even con mob. Is this the end of the road for those of us who just don't want the leveling process to be a solo run? I'm afraid it is.

You know, I  think this is one thing that WoW actually got right.

90% of WoW is dumbed-down, easy-mode, log-in, collect loot.  AKA lolcasuals, scourge the interwebs, destroyer of WoW, etc.

9% of what's left is kinda challenging but not uber hard (arena with a decent rating, raiding but not on the bleeding edge).  The people that are generally respected (begrudgingly by the lolcasuals and condescendingly by the uber hardcores)

And the last 1% is the top arena teams, top raiding guilds.  Despite all the hate they get the content they do is *not* easy, especially since they're generally the first ones doing it and don't outgear it.

And the way the system is set up people pretty naturally sort themselves out.  It works well and is one of the keys to WoW's success.

Many see it as a long shot, and I don't blame anyone for being skeptical, but Darkfall looks to be on the horizon. If PvP is your thing, the game features real-time first/third-person combat. And a very large sand-box world should make exploration great fun.

I agree to some extent. A lot of the games out these days do not provide much challenge. However, I do like to have something that is minless to do in an MMO (tired after work or just want to wind down). The problem is that games without a lot of the challenging aspects that your were talking about turn into grind- fest eventually. I love instancing, but theres only so many damn times you can do the same dungeon. LOTRO's end game grind was a joke; and I like WAR, but it's nothing to jump up and down over. (I think it'll be better 5 month from now). The trick is to have a game that has a lot more challenging options, but also allows for the menial and mindless.

Actually DDO has some challenging encounters and an amazing combat system. It has come a long way but the instanced design will put off many.

If you could juxtapose that game in an open world you might have something.

 Short answer, no. Long answer, no. WoW has essentially hosed the entire MMO genre by both damaging the overall community irreperably, and by setting the standard of "easy money" for everyone else to follow. You end up with A: Devs who care more about the money than the game and produce carbon copy EZmode crap or B: Devs who care about their game, but end up compromising its complexity so that it can get SOME market share. 

And honestly, I think thats the big point here. Not so much that the games are "easy" but rather they lack any semblance of depth. Heaven forbid someone actually have to do something on their own, or not have their hand held through something, or something take more effort than clicking something and making it die. The world would end, the game would be declared terrible in and instant and everyone would go back to WoW and hide under a blanket until it went away. 

Bottom line, innovation has been crushed, not enhanced, by WoWs competition. All we can do is sit back and hope that someone finally has the balls to do their own thing and develop a quality game without compromising depth and complexity in order to appeal to a "general audience" that wants to be treated like spoiled five year olds. At the moment, the best we can do is look back to the games that were great in their hayday and are still holding on. Unfortunately, we don't have many of those left either. 

Of course there is. People will play anything with shiny graphics and well done.

Originally posted by brostyn

A la WoW, EQ2, WAR, AOC, Vanguard, LoTRO, etc.

 

This is getting insane. All those games are very simple. Perhaps the most complex being WoW(how sad is that?). WAR really let me down. Its dumbed down worse than WoW is.

 

Is there no hope for at least one game going back to the roots of MMO?  You had to work for rewards, being max level actually meant something, dying wasn't considered a quick way back to town, exploration was exciting, learning the map meant you wrote it down or memorized it in your head.

I miss camping for that item, I miss taking days to do one quest, I miss getting pissed that I died, I miss getting getting killed by an even con mob. Is this the end of the road for those of us who just don't want the leveling process to be a solo run? I'm afraid it is.

Search before asking a dumb question like this.

Darkfall look no further.

But the list of games you named seems you think a themepark games can be a challenge lol.

That will never happen they are tailor made for casuals and noobs.

one word EVE.