Developers Corner

(I probably should have posted this in general...but, yea...we know how that turns out.)

Honestly, I don't think I've ever been a fan of "questing" in games.  Even in single player games, where questing is easier to swallow than in an MMO, I still lose interest fairly quickly.  Fallout 3 is my most recent example.  Since I dove into it last week, I've spent most of my time roaming around, exploring, killing, looting, and making characters.  Anything other than questing, lol.  I mean, I've done a quest here and there, and to be fair, the story lines are all interesting IMO.  But, for the most part, I don't much interest in jumping on the quest train. 

Why?  Well, I guess theres nothing really creative or exciting about questing.  You follow the dotted line from one encounter to the next and read your lines on the script.  Again, to be fair, Fallout does allow for some freedom in their quests.  For those that haven't played it, you get different dialogue options, depending on your character build and whether you want to be good, evil, or kind of neutral.  Not to mention, there are usually multiple ways to complete a quest, including a good path and an evil path.  But like I said, I still spend most of my time roaming around with no particular goal.

So, what the hell is my point here?  Well, my point is, if I can't get excited about questing in a single player RPG, why the hell would I want to do it in an MMO?  With out exception, MMORPG questing is flat out pathetic compared to what you find in the average single player RPG.  It's cheap, disposable, and generic.  Did I mention static?  Nothing you do in an MMO quest has any effect on anything?  Why?  Because, there are thousands of other players completing the exact same quests with the exact same results.

"Well, if you taking questing out of MMOs, what else is there to do?"

I'm glad you asked.  We need to back track to the way things use to be.  I'm I nastalgic?  No.  Do I think older MMOs were perfect?  Hell no.  The old MMOs were a good foundation to build from.  Any issue we had with them could have been tweaked or improved, rather than taken in an entirely new direction.  I can think of a number of problems that probably had easy or workable solutions?  But, what do you think?  What were the biggest issues with the older crop?  What would you have done?

I think the real problem with the older MMOs was just what you have mentioned, too much of a focus on single-player RPG mechanics like leveling/loot/quests, etc. and not enough focus on the exciting possibilities of having a persistent world.  However, at the first things were a little more open which was great.  In the early days I saw a lot of potential for the genre.  Then all the single-player type of mechanics started to break down.  Level based drops and loot unbalanced the economy.  Greifing in the the dungeons and PKing anywhere and everywhere made people mad.  Twinking of new characters, not enough content or quests for a supposedly ongoing game, etc. etc. etc.

So what did they do?  Instancing, soul-binding of items, PvP on consent only, more quests of poor quality.  The list goes on and on of arbitrary systems made to fix single-player mechanics that just aren't working in MMOs.  Then even fixes need fixed half the time as classes become more rigid, level caps rise, economies break artificially, and characters get nerfed.  It is all an attempt to provide what is known as balance, which really boils down to making the game more and more the same for everyone so that they can all have an equal experience comparable to single-player games, but it all comes off at a far lower level of quality than most of those.  If it weren't for the irresistible draw to play in something even barely-resembling a persistent reality shared with other real people, I don't see how these things could even work at all.

Instead of going in this direction, shouldn't we have abandoned these single-player mechanics long ago and created more dynamic worlds with a much wider variety of situations that would be constantly changing with power in the hands of players to affect those changes to some degree or another?  The goal would shift from leveling for uber loot to adapting to situations at hand in order to meet goals set by the players themselves which then struggle against the natural mechanics of the persistent world or against conflicting goals of others whether economic, military, political, or even friendly rivalries.  Of course goals would also align creating for the first time true communities that work together to shape a corner of the game world to the liking of those involved.

Of course with such freedom there are many issues to be addressed and obstacles to overcome, but my investigations lead me to believe that it is entirely possible.  The only question that remains:  Is it too late to turn back and go down the other path?

Originally posted by ironore

I think the real problem with the older MMOs was just what you have mentioned, too much of a focus on single-player RPG mechanics like leveling/loot/quests, etc. and not enough focus on the exciting possibilities of having a persistent world.  However, at the first things were a little more open which was great.  In the early days I saw a lot of potential for the genre.  Then all the single-player type of mechanics started to break down.  Level based drops and loot unbalanced the economy.  Greifing in the the dungeons and PKing anywhere and everywhere made people mad.  Twinking of new characters, not enough content or quests for a supposedly ongoing game, etc. etc. etc.

Sadly if people would just band together against griefers and stop being anti social, there wouldnt be an issue. But yes, i agree.. this did happen :(

So what did they do?  Instancing, soul-binding of items, PvP on consent only, more quests of poor quality.  The list goes on and on of arbitrary systems made to fix single-player mechanics that just aren't working in MMOs.  Then even fixes need fixed half the time as classes become more rigid, level caps rise, economies break artificially, and characters get nerfed.  It is all an attempt to provide what is known as balance, which really boils down to making the game more and more the same for everyone so that they can all have an equal experience comparable to single-player games, but it all comes off at a far lower level of quality than most of those.  If it weren't for the irresistible draw to play in something even barely-resembling a persistent reality shared with other real people, I don't see how these things could even work at all.

Actually i fully agree with this. The big problem is classes. We need skill trees.. balanced to a certian extent, but very different in excecution. But yes.. ever wow clone (incuding the recent WAR) feels the same. Its sad really... but every one of these games make me want our dream sandbox even more. Hell, im looking for scholarships so i can go learn how to make games and show all these corporations up.

Instead of going in this direction, shouldn't we have abandoned these single-player mechanics long ago and created more dynamic worlds with a much wider variety of situations that would be constantly changing with power in the hands of players to affect those changes to some degree or another?  The goal would shift from leveling for uber loot to adapting to situations at hand in order to meet goals set by the players themselves which then struggle against the natural mechanics of the persistent world or against conflicting goals of others whether economic, military, political, or even friendly rivalries.  Of course goals would also align creating for the first time true communities that work together to shape a corner of the game world to the liking of those involved.

I dream of such a world... every damn day. Especially after finishing the third book of eragon. Devs dont realize they are sitting on a gold mine... all they need to do is forgo quests and put in lots of props and mechanics that support out dream. To be honest.... it really wouldnt be that hard. The only thing holding them back is a piece of wows pie, which in my opinion is downright stupid.. if people wanted wow they would play it, not a copy. *sigh* In any case.. man i wish our world existed.

Of course with such freedom there are many issues to be addressed and obstacles to overcome, but my investigations lead me to believe that it is entirely possible.  The only question that remains:  Is it too late to turn back and go down the other path?

For many corporations im sure they will sooner or later drop mmorpgs alltogether simply becuase they do not have the "thinking outside the box" mentality that we do. That and theyll see that making thier wow clone was unprofitable.

I see.. in the future.. that the only people that will rescue this genre are actual players themselves becoming developers and indie developers (one of the same really).

So heres to hoping ironore... i really hope this genre takes a turn around. In any case, what game are you currently playing iron, id like to know.. :)

An interesting trend that I have noticed on these boards in posts where people are grieving the state of MMORPG games/gameplay.....

The things that seem to bother people MOST are the anti-community directions that the genre seems to be going in....more single player-centric gameplay, bad chat interfaces, no REAL reasons to be in a guild or strengthen your guild, soulbound loot, no real encouragement through the gameplay for grouping and community cohesion of any sort really, loot hoarding is encouraged, making your OWN character "uber leet" and having a huge epeen to show off to the masses seems to be a predominant theme these days.

I have an idea of WHY games have gone this route, and it probably will tick some people off, but....the developers are catering to a very LARGE part of the gaming populace that is, predominantly of a younger generation (age 17-25), most of whom are unmarried, have no children, no commitments or responsibilities (I'm not talking ALL of that group, just some) other than maybe school, MAYBE a job, most still live at home with Mom and Dad, and their lives, pretty much, are centered around THEMSELVES.  They are the center of their own little universes.  They grew up in a world that was all drive-thrus, microwaves, and all instant gratification and ME ME ME ME.

Now with THAT being the predominantly targetted market....if YOU were a developer....what sort of game would YOU make?  You would feed their egos, you would give them instant gratification (because they EXPECT it), you would spoil and coddle and pamper them, just like Mommy and Daddy did, because.....they WHINE if you do not.  Now I'm sure this makes a lot of people angry that someone would just come right out and say that, BUT....it is true.  I'm not saying that ALL GAMERS are like this, they're not.  But that IS a big chunk of the gaming market and developers WANT the financial gains that come from appeasing that segment of the gamer populace.  Sad....but true.

And why blame it all on the younger folks?  There is also the middle-aged group of gamers (sort of where I fall into the mess) that have older children (or in MY case, grown children), full-time jobs, LOTS of responsibilities, and little time for recreation.  These people are worried about bigger things in the world than gaming, the stock market is killing their income, the gas prices have been insane, they're struggling to help pay for Sonny Boy's college, and their pet poodle they've had since their children were babies, just died.  (I know, I'm trying to make light and exaggerate just a bit.)  But THIS group of people has a limited amount of time to invest in their hobby.  Gaming is a reasonably priced hobby, much cheaper than golf with the neighbors at the country club, and they have fond memories of gaming when they were younger, as well.  However....they don't have the TIME they used to have.  They need a game they can log in to and play for 2 hours max, per session.

We could continue to add in other segments of the gaming population to this equation, but what we'll likely end up with when we're done is the same thing.....

Game developers are trying to meet the needs of a vast and DIVERSE market of players.  Of those groups, the younger generation is probably a lot more VOCAL about what they expect from their games.  Remember the age old adage, "The squeakiest wheel gets the oil."  Well...they squeak, and they squeak loudly.

I agree with and understand the OP's grief over the state of the genre, but...I also see, I believe, why it has become what it is.  Do I like it?  No, not most of it, some of it...yes.  And a fact in the equation also is.....when a company TRIES to add new dimensions that dramatically affect the game world, some gamers are SO resistant to the changes (take for example the recent uncontrollable zombie invasion in WoW), that the companies are essentially FORCED to alter their plans because of the tremendous number of people that will whine about how it's getting in their way of power-leveling, or whatever.

I would HATE to be a developer having to deal with these things.  If anyone has an answer for how developers can keep their games or MAKE their games, more alive, immersive, and dynamic, while still having to cater to "those people"....I bet the devs would be very interested in the solutions.

I agree that the target population is a big part of the problem.  However, I believe that there is really a large market out there for a more dynamic MMORPG that currently doesn't play what we now call MMORPGs at all.  They just don't see the point.  I fall into this category myself.  I don't play any MMORPG currently although I have tested and tried a great many of them as well as discussed them extensively here on these forums and elsewhere.  Most recently I was investigating the dynamics of Wurm Online which was very interesting although lacking in a few vital areas that would create variety of situation.

Secondly I believe that a player-driven world dynamic enough to accommodate a vast number of situations would very likely have something for everyone, from the young kids who just want to bash stuff, to the busy older generation that would like a short escape every now and then, and everyone in between.

The reason being, that in such an immersive and dynamic world there is no level carrot hanging in front of you, no tread-mill to grind away on.  You set your own goals and work to accomplish them.  The focus shifts from this idea of end-game content, to simply experiencing the game world and the situations that arise.  You could log in for a couple of hours a week and see what is going on.  You might train up in thieving skills and break into a house every now and then and that's it.  You might keep your fighting skills up and just go kill baddies for the rewards or bounties that other players have out.  Then again you may have lots of time and focus on building up an empire and you cater to the people that want to gain ranks and levels by organizing them to accomplish goals and advancing them in your political/military/whatever system.

So to sum up, I think that there is already a large potential market for a more dynamic game world, and such a game would actually work not only for that market, but likely for others because it will be diverse enough to encompass a wide variety of play styles.  But who is to say until it is tried?

Quest can be fun, like in Biowares Neverwinter nights (the first game, not the crappy sequel by Obsidian) and KOTOR. Unfortunatley most quests in MMOs are often simple steretypes like "kill 10 x" but it is not because questing is bad in itself, it is just because many devs are lazy and don't want to spend much time doing and writing them.

Good quest should have multiple ways of be done.

I like AoC in the way that you can talk to the npcs but it is usually notthing that it matters (I got 1 extra reward once while blackmailing someone).

A real quest should be intresting, what you say to the npcs should matter and have impact on your character.

And there should be a way for high level characters to make their own quest to be handed down to lower level guys.

I'm more so a Pen & Paper RPG Player than a MMORPG Player. However, I really do fancy the idea of what MMORPG has the potential to be. It is my belief giving the players powerful and user-friendly Quest Creation tools is a cure for the mundane. What I visualize in my mind is GMs and Players coming together in Dynamic Persistent 3D World using its assets and rule