I had to laugh when I saw this thread, then I stopped to think, yeah Im a guy laughing in the West, but now re ask that question for the huge Asian market, where PC gaming isnt as popular, and where this game should be more popular.

Then I remembered I was on MMoRPG forums and just settled to laugh at post and then to start screaming 'DOOOOM on all your games, I say DOOOOOOOOM "

Dont take offense but i,ve got to ask, as it is the obvious, is it plug in question.......You do have a graphics card that supports shader 3, the eq2 auto detect will uncheck box if you card doesnt support it, as well as the known bug.

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Nektulos Forest in EQ1 was really scary as a first time player, because it was so easy to get lost, and die... lots.  There were no ingame maps whatsoever, let alone an ingame map that showed your location in a zone, and the mist, strange noises and mobs appearing as you went past a tree really scared the crap out of me.

I don't think I've ever played an MMO since then that has ever been even remotely creepy, sadly.  :(

 Going to have to agree with you on that one, that dam forset filled me with aprehension every time I had to run it, kept looking at time and dreading nightfall, I actually dreaded going in there, nothing since has had that effect on me, but then maybe because i got jaded lol.

Originally posted by Exavus

I've been playing a 21-day Free trial offered by a friend of mine who says if I subscribe he will toss 200mil isk my way. Theres so many things I like about this game, but a few things I dislike, so I've been weighing the pros and cons and want some help from other current subscribers.

Things I love about Eve:

It's all on one server, everyone is in one universe.

I've never really played a Sandbox style MMO and it intrigues me how much the game is player driven instead of the regular "theme-park" MMO that holds your hand through everything and your on a set destiny to hit max level.

The interface and intro to the game is very impressive and I like the way space looks.

 

Things I don't like:

How weak you are when you start compared to others.

Can be very easy to lose hours of gametime if you make a mistake

Takes month(?) to be competetive against other players as the game is PVP oriented so a harsh beginning...

HUGE learning curve. Very complex game with a LOT of stats to be considered on a wide range ship accessories

---

So with that, I thought maybe it would be a decent idea to just throw a few months (30$) at the game and train up skills and if i get upset to just take a break but keep training skills so that even though i'm upset i'm weak i'll eventually get there if I don't lose sight of the bigger picture.

I'm a theme-park MMO player. EQ/WoW, yeah those games. So this is definitely a change. Thanks for any tips/advice.

 Dont fanny-arse about trying to be a solo player, get into a corp ASAP, they will guide you, and if your friend can "bung" you 200 millon isk, why the heck are you asking us questions, milk that friend for all he is worth, information that is.

You can be competive very early, if you take off the OOOOOH big ship blinkers, small ships are the nightmare of the very large ships, learn how to tackle someone, can be done quickly, and you fly very fast around them close range and be laughing at their inability to shoot you..  there u go lesson 1, that was for free.

Eve is about CORP life, thats it, if you get that concept you will find vast amounts of things to do, and not all of them involve shooting...

Oh and the tutorial quest lines give you so much now, and show you  a good picture of all the different roles you can play, it doesnt sound like you did them all, but it gives you ships,weapons and guides you by the hand showing you combat,scanning and all the rest of it...DO THE TUTORIALS.

Oh and your last comment about learning curve and all the different accessories for ships, yet again tutorial would of stressed the BASIC roles for EVE, the ACCESSORIES as you put it start off low skill and progress as you specialize into different roles, you dont urinate onto a campfire and then claim to be a fireman, you have to train to fullfill a role.

Originally posted by Pinkerl

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by brostyn

You still stuck on your ps3?

 uh...yeah, this.

I did the console thing when I was a kid, man.....kinda grew out of that.

well i grew up with video games. back in late 80s my family bought the original nintendo. own super nintendo. own genesis but sold it. own ps1. own ps2. own ps3.

when i was a kid i always play video games then i saw many adults play games on pc so i thought it was cool and then i got into it. from fps to rts to mmo. yes mmo i spin on it the most. lineage 2 2.5 years. silkroad 1.5 years. guild wars 9 months. wow trial. eq2 trial. aoc trial. try all mmo floating around both free and subscription.

now grow older realize mmo is so boring no depth... run around retirve this retrieve that kill this kill that. pvp in mmo is not skill base so no fun on pvp either. i grow out of mmo...

 

its like i think whatever adults do is automatically cool.... cause a kid like myself dont know how to think intelligently yet. mmo was never my type grow up and notice.

 

comparring mmo to console games.... mmo is so boring. if i want online play... todays gen console has kick ass online. u can even kick someone ass online on tekken 6, sc4, super sf4. i can play modern fps on console without breaking my wallet due to hardware. mmo is so classic. mmo is out of style. unless new breed of mmo is born.... maybe blade and soul.

 

i am not going backward... im evolving. experience and learn.

 You lost me after you used the words depth and console.

,Everyone have their different tastes and needs out of their entertainment,   I like Eve for its depth and find other MMORPG,s and Pc games to be shallow, and find consoles to well crap, I got a free PS3, used it for blu ray, then gave it away, thought it was junk, slow clunky terrible interfaces in everything it did.

As for evolving, hardly, its just another avenue into gaming, but has well drawn over limitations, its an offshoot, not progression.

True evolution will come very soon in the form of PC like games you connect through to, without the need of any PC hardware your end, just a foxtel looking type set top box, tech was demo a few years back, bandwidth is limiting factor at present .

Consoles are cut down pc,s , the gap is narrowing but still a large gap, just look at all the load times on a bloody PS3 to realise that.

I absolutely love this thread, as it flies in some cases so hard againest hard evidence.

The game is tanking so hard for reasons stated over so many times, its becoming like the 10 freakin commandments on how not to use a popular ip for a quick buck.

The evidence is  in the numbers they are truely awful, not bad, not terrible but F-King terrible for the ip and time its been out, and to write on forums argueing the finer points of one mans pleasure is another mans hate, is beyond deluded when the stats point out a 500 to 1 agreement on what there is to hate.

The story of King Canute comes to mind, with the KIng representing the remaining gamers, and the sea representing popular opinion and reality, and there are some posters here going to bed with wet salty feet.

Originally posted by Catamount

Well what's more, saying "Nvidia's next revision will compare more favorably" is, for complete lack of a better word, just utterly silly. OF COURSE a newer card is going to compare more favorably to a given competitor than an older card; that just goes without saying.

The problem with this logic is that it assumes dynamic development from Nvidia and static development from Ati, when it's demonstrably the reverse that's true. Put simply, yes, Nvidia's next revision of these cards will compare to present Ati cards more favorably, but it's not like Ati has stopped developing, which means by the time Nvidia gets that next revision out, Ati will be that much closer to their next revision, which will then leave Nvidia's cards in the dust again.

The fact that Nvidia needs to wait for a future revision of their cards just to compete favorably with present Ati cards that were released six months ago cannot be seen as a favorable thing, no matter how much you try to spin it.

 Did you actually read what was said at all, before you went off, and did you read back because last poster cropped me when quoting, which is a sign of bad forum habits, as it takes someones whole post out off context, or can.

I was hardly spinning anything, I was saying not to buy any of them unless you need to (ie your card is dead or older than 2 years), and not to consider the nvidia big time till revision 2 because of its currant power and heat.

If you want to join in to a thread, at least read more than the first and last post, its a discussion and is constantly evolving, unlike some people.

Originally posted by dfan

Originally posted by kruler

 

The revision2 should look better when compared againest ATi,(less power usage and heat) but by then, the old release to early gremlin is well and truely out.

A lesson that is refusing to be learnt by most companies dispite constant high profile examples, its ok to want to have your presence felt in the market place, but not when that presence is wearing clown shoes has bright ginger hair, and smells funny, it kind of works againest you.

The first will never happen, just look at the differences. Nvidia can lower the power usage, but can't get anywhere near ati.

 Not exactly the point i was making, and as for whole debate about whats best, I,m not bothered, all cards are quite over powered for whats being produced game wise, if thats the sole purpose for which you want compare them by.

But if you want to drag me out to make a comment , I will say ive own both companies cards and Ive been happy with both, only times I lost my cool with either has been over driver support, and stupid descions within that frame.

Also I am somewhat dubious of most claims of bench marking as in genera,l they are prone  to many issues, this applies to both cards, with drivers written just for bench marking programs in mind and many many more little reasons, such as site bias, site plain incompetence to name just a few.

The point I was making was about rushing things, never buying first of anythings, software and hardware, its a good rule thats served me well, and with some interest and I mean some as in small, I would like to see the revision 2 results after they put more time in, have have no interest in buying the product, the card i have will serve me for another 14 months with ease, and then some.

But getting your epeen out and waving around in support of a bit of hardware, is more worrying as it,s well its hardware, its like getting turned on by a shovel, its a tool, it either performs the task its designed for well, or ok but its hardly a trouser tent moment.

Its been said before, they should of skipped this batch and waited for revision 2, they know they were going to have issues with power/heat right from the early stages when they had the horrendous failure rates. (Not in final product, failure rate in manufacturing process, I must stress that so not to confuse the issue).

The revision2 should look better when compared againest ATi,(less power usage and heat) but by then, the old release to early gremlin is well and truely out.

A lesson that is refusing to be learnt by most companies dispite constant high profile examples, its ok to want to have your presence felt in the market place, but not when that presence is wearing clown shoes has bright ginger hair, and smells funny, it kind of works againest you.

Originally posted by Darth_Osor

If STO sold 500k units, how come the captain database only had 190k handles (account names)?  Sure, some people bought multiple copies for preorder items and used the keys on one account, but not THAT many.  STO topped out at 19 on Xfire...it probably should have placed higher if they had close to 500k, since AoC and WAR both sold between 700-800k and both top out at 4th.  EVE routinely is around 17 and last reported number was they had 300k.

Assume for a second they did sell 500k...that's still pretty bad for the first Trek MMO.  Also, for less than two months later for them to say "over 100k" subs still means a near record drop in retention rates.  You're freakin out of your mind if you think STO has 1 mil subscribers.  They'd be bragging all over the web if they had that.

 While the debate on the actual numbers is fascinating, it still boils done to desecting a corpse, as the general sentiment is this is one dead lame duck, so take solace you all roughly agree on that one, I never thought I would see a sub drop so hard after Warhammer so soon.

Will lessons be learnt, Hell no, they raped people in box sales, it was a smash and grab, in fact some people are still blinking in the harsh light of day and still dont realise they have had their pants taken down, and been taken advantage of in the most personnel way, call it "Post Traumatic Cyptic Sub Syndrome".

I,m waiting for them to do another over hyped POS, sell 1 million boxes, then go entirely F2P with a cash shop mall the size of Iceland, all with in 3 months, thought they were going to pull that for STO, but they still might.

Originally posted by Methos12

I think it's not primarily related to how you've become older and/or jaded, but instead to the fact that you've become more experienced because of it... and you're basically seeing the same old same concepts being used, dumbed down, repackaged and then sold again to younger crowds as something "new and revolutionary".

 100% agree, nice one.

While this game i am about to mention is not an MMO at all it does highlight a point.

I got Freespace to run on an emulator, and was very suprised at how good the gameplay was, so started thinking about other older titles 10+ years, and ran through the emulator catalogue, and was aside from obvious graphical short commings pleasently amazed at the depth and bredth of this older titles.

And then it hit me what I think is going on, and I stress I dont want to turn this into a 'this versus this' and hijack the thread, I am merely stating an opinion on why there has been a precieved decline in meaningfully engaging games. 

CONSOLES....

Because the game makers are making cross platform games or desire to at some point, the games are being compremised to an all platform able level, but the mind set appears to even spread out to titles not ever going cross platform.

This opinion is not the be all and end all of the issue rather a contributing factor of things devolving into "all form and no substance".

Also believe that large publishers are very much to blame, because the sheer cost of modern productions leads to outside influences such as afore mentioned publishers, having way to much control over a companies creative process. 

Originally posted by Kalthanose

Well thats not entirely true a FFA loot game named shadowbane lasted for what 3-5 years as p2p and then went f2p for what another 4 years i think and is now looking and resurecting from the fan base with a emulator that gets ride of all the issues that plagued the game.  Game in my mind is a success it ran for longer than some modern games with a steady core group of players multiple servers until the end and now is looking at coming back so yeah. 

Now Eve is a good game however thier are alot of people who live in 0.0 whoa re carebears and protected by their allaince lol so not a real good argument to im not a carebear.

Darkfall is also growing atm not shrinking last i looked which is also a FFA full loot game.

IMO the majority of players are not hardcore pvpers in fact alot of people realy arnt whoclaim to be.  I ahve joined supposed top pvp guilds in multiple MMO's who are recognized as such and yet they pvped less than smaller guilds who arnt even known ( reason is alot of times these guilds have numbers so you see them alot and get noticed while a member of a smaller guild with running only a few people gets individual credit and "crew" credit). 

The skill witht he zerg model comes into mind when a smaller group takes on the zerg and say that group is 10 and the zerg is 100 and the 10 kill 30-40 or more of the zerg well thats a win. you cost them more so its a win.  In fact in some games ive been ina  group of 7-10 and beaten 50-100 people and not died and sometimes i ahve been killed in ohhh 2 sec lol.

So with most people not being hardcore pvpers the when a pvp basedgame comes out and all the so called pvpers go play it they find they cant realy handle it or that its not what their looking for.  I personaly go from a game say like darkfall and then go play eve then go play an fps then go play starcraft vs a player then back to eve becasue i persoanly like a players vs npc's becasue i find it more challenging.  As far as lot eve is great casue thiers risk so when  flying my expensive ships i still get that little rush when in a fight and my shields or armor is going down.  In a game like wow nothing realy.  The chance to loose something gives that excitment thats so ncie otherwise its terrable.  But people dont want to loose any of their digital itemz OMG casue so many mmos make it sucha  grind to get it that they cant see that.  THIER DIGITAL, go get them again and have some fun.  Grinding for an item that gets replaced the next xpack is just bad IMO so much time for something that emans nothing, rather play a game where i can just ahve fun and replace what i lost without running a raid for 100000000000000000000+ hours.

 Using a large Alliance as a shield was a point I alluded to, and yes I did forget Shadowbane, partly due to the compliants coming from the game were similiar to what the OP was talking about, but point taken.

But FFA loot does have an image problem that is hampering its growth, which was the rambling point of my post, and corrisive elements dont help, even though they exsist in one shape or form in all the genres, its this genre that cops the most negarive press for it, and I do concede a % of it is from people who dont like the style venting, which boggles me, as I would of just kept quiet and sloped off to something different.

Darkfall is growing and a big Kudos for them pulling the turn round on that one after its awfull begining, I enjoyed it, but just didnt like the setting, I am just over the whole sword and staffs fantasy/middle ages settings in the same way i,m burnt out of World War2 FPS,s lol. But my point even there still stands, if it hits 500k then all my points are proven worthless, hell if it hits 250k active, non-fiddled figures I will give up my point.

But going back to OP,s point Darkfall is still guilty as charged in his eyes for the thing he dislikes .

I am trying very hard not to let this for the sake of the OP, to sink into who is carebear, who isnt as this hampers greatly what this guy is asking about, and as the term is negative its not conducive to the thread, even though "carebears" in my view have an important role play in PVP genre as they tend to flesh out other areas, which yet again goes back to my layered approach to PVP.

However that said after playing  Fallen Earth, that layerded approach to PVP dont feel very worthwhile at all, which is the next big problem with most PVP FFA,s, the PVP doesnt always feel like it has a reason, which can cause peopleto mistake a game as purely a gankfest, because they can not see a reason for newbie griefer kills or player killing in general, and this is about not having goals or aims ergo reasons for the killing in the first place, some people need a cause.

Even if its a weak factional excuse its still a reason a cause, remove these elements and your left with what, now step into the shoes of someone thats needs a cause and you can now see why so many view PVP FFA with such disdain, thus limiting its potentional. 

Now I like, no I prefer sandbox style games as players will always make more interesingt situations given the right tools than any themepark, but the key word here is tools, and thats where I also found Darkfall a little bit lacking, there needs to be more reason and drive inserted as tools to make the game truely big. Not knocking the game it is fun, it just could be bigger, through placing a few simple things to drive desire to achieve something beyond just oneself.

You will hit the F2P free/bought stuff wall at some point and find you cant appear to succeed without dipping into your wallet, skill truely only goes so far in F2P......

The sub based ones at the moment arnt that much better but for different reasons, as vocal minorities tend to dictate direction, while the silent majority tend to just get pissed off and disiluisioned and wander off, hence the lack lustre sub figures for all PVP sub based games and even more so for FFA full loot games.

People are going to go " ahh but look at X.Y,Z " , well fine you show me X.Y and Z with over 500k subs and I will concede my point.

The curse of your experience is in skill based sub based pvp that is ffa full loot, is people will naturaly form ganking squads, either you join a bigger one or get rolled over alot, the game may be based on skill, but the path of least resistence involves no skill at all, and what logical route would most people take.

But here comes the vocal minority, if anything is attempted to stop or limit ganking squads, the most successfull or most practising zerg minded throw up so much flak that nothing ends up getting achieved, the game goes from lack lustre subs to very low and dies, the Zerging crews move on not caring, like the parasites they are.

 So it is in my humble opinion that these people who are so loud, that are keeping PVP skill based P2P genre in such a mire, and their claims of carebears ruin PVP are ironic at best, as they tend to be more of a crosive problem.

Now some are thinking, oooh he is a carebear who got his ass slapped a few times, all I can say is Ive played EvE since 2005 and am very active in 0.0, its because of Eve that I can see how a layered PVP skill based game can work very well, both catering for the griefers, (pirates, zerg minded sheep followers corps etc etc), and the semi RP, PVP polictical players, if you base a game model purely on one mechinic its going to not do well as people like choices and they like chances to.

Originally posted by Airphel

The killing of the horse was at the equirry guy, just out side of guards reach.

 

And my problem isn't the mechanics so much (yes theives need to be fixed), its the horrid community. I've been forced to change my characters screen name just because this small group of players wants to harass me into obivion.

 

No I never played UO, that was before my time I suppose, but I was an avid SB player.

 I think your point of contension will prove to be moot post release, bearing in mind game is in free all beta at moment and post release and the end of the free 30 days, the population of the game will change drasticly.

Some will say to dust bunnies, some will say only to a few niche players, but I do see a fairly decent RP,ers presnce as well as other groups, how that translates to subs post free month remains to be seen, by the same token a lot of your issues will lower vastly.

When and if they sort the clan towns out will also yet again change the dynamics, but going to leave it at that because as this is an opinion I can not fully endorse that will actually happen.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by kruler

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Sheista

He brings up valid points, albeit brashly.

You don't seem to like the game, so why play it?  "Because I pay with ISK" isn't a good answer.  You still have to play the game to make ISK so it's not as if you aren't spending a good amount of time playing it, and there has to be some reason you *gasp* ENJOY it.  I mean, you do obviously enjoy it, or you wouldn't be spending all that time earning ISK to pay for it, so that you could do whatever else it is you do in the game.  Right?

You don't have to love every single thing in it to play it. And its free 2 play so what the heck. Got nothing better.

 Are you maybe missing a small point of the game, I have done maybe 50 missions since 2005 if that, Ive always played in the mind set of player driven content

.I,m in a very active corp and I am constantly  engaged in various levels of inter corp warfare and politics, we have convoy runs to organise and protect, need to arrange patrols of assets etc etc.

I may be wrong in my assumption that your just playing a self induced Eve Lite, 0.2+ space are just if you like training grounds for what happens in the real Eve which is player driven 0.0.

Your arguement suggests a small desire to have a degree of being lead, instead of you leading, if that is the case you will never get the full scale of what is Eve.

Eve isnt about missions, they are just something to do, if lets say no corps members are on or need to earn some cash after a long protracedt bout of combat (ie inter corp/alliance war) and your ships/resources are low and you need to rebuild stock, or earn some Loyalty Points, something ive never even bothered with. Or heaven forbid you might enjoy them, we do have members that actualy like them, each to there own.

Your assumption that I am a newb of some degree. That somehow I haven't see all that is Eve. -But I have! I can't say that I've seen everything because of the SP system, but I've seen enough. I live in zero-sec because if I still lived in hi-sec/low-sec, I would've stop playing a long time ago.

Don't start preaching what there is to do in Eve, because chances are, I've done it already. Some of you have this strange notion that "you can not like Eve". For me, there's plenty not to like, but it is still good enough to play.

 As I clearly said and admited to, I am making an assumption that is based on what you have been saying all through this thread, which has been focused on the mission system, a compliant often the focus of fairly new players, hence my assumption.

However your attiude speaks far louder, so feeding is now ceasing.

Originally posted by Evile

As I always say, and have said many times

So called "Free to Play" format is a scam. It's a tactic to trick people out of cash, and play on addictions.

Give me my MMO cost upfront with a honest monthly charge, and no scam of a cash shop.

I will NEVER play a "free to play" format MMO outside the Guild Wars format. SOE with SWG is even worse IMO, they charge monthly, AND have a scam card game which is even worse then a cash shop. 

This scam will ONLY stop when people wake up and start rejecting it. DON'T support ANY game with a cash shop, or the scam FTP format.

 

 /AGREED....Was brought up to ask certain questions, the main one is, if an offer appears to be good, ask yourself where is the catch, and how are they making the money on this deal?

F2P is a cesspit, even though the heavy back handers make it akin to the second coming according to this web site, and some push it harder than others, vested interests maybe? This was even admited to by someone leaving here very recently, so dont bother getting all modded up over the subject that has been already broached by an employee.

Ive never believed in a free lunch, but the best way to compare most F2P companies is a Drug dealer offering free samples, gets you hooked into grindy drudgery and then sticks you for 1000,s.

Ask yourself one key question, if you are not too young and leeching of your parants credit card.

Do you actually trust some of these F2P companies with your credit card info, I for one wouldnt give them my e-mail address, or look at their sites without being behind a dam good fire wall masking my ip.

Dont even get me started on the blatant stupidity of people on social network sites and sercurity, then couple in scam gaming sites no wonder the model works well its being propped up by fraud and at the very least questionable data mining.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Sheista

He brings up valid points, albeit brashly.

You don't seem to like the game, so why play it?  "Because I pay with ISK" isn't a good answer.  You still have to play the game to make ISK so it's not as if you aren't spending a good amount of time playing it, and there has to be some reason you *gasp* ENJOY it.  I mean, you do obviously enjoy it, or you wouldn't be spending all that time earning ISK to pay for it, so that you could do whatever else it is you do in the game.  Right?

You don't have to love every single thing in it to play it. And its free 2 play so what the heck. Got nothing better.

 Are you maybe missing a small point of the game, I have done maybe 50 missions since 2005 if that, Ive always played in the mind set of player driven content

.I,m in a very active corp and I am constantly  engaged in various levels of inter corp warfare and politics, we have convoy runs to organise and protect, need to arrange patrols of assets etc etc.

I may be wrong in my assumption that your just playing a self induced Eve Lite, 0.2+ space are just if you like training grounds for what happens in the real Eve which is player driven 0.0.

Your arguement suggests a small desire to have a degree of being lead, instead of you leading, if that is the case you will never get the full scale of what is Eve.

Eve isnt about missions, they are just something to do, if lets say no corps members are on or need to earn some cash after a long protracedt bout of combat (ie inter corp/alliance war) and your ships/resources are low and you need to rebuild stock, or earn some Loyalty Points, something ive never even bothered with. Or heaven forbid you might enjoy them, we do have members that actualy like them, each to there own.

Originally posted by Agricola1

Originally posted by kruler

Is that a electric stone altar or the new snazzy gas fired ones that double as a pizza oven.

 It's heated by furnace, I use copies of SWG an WoW as fuel!

 So you went alternative fuels route then, darn hippy

Is that a electric stone altar or the new snazzy gas fired ones that double as a pizza oven.

Good sign of a sandbox, is an outer edge littered with various broken bits of Tonka toys, near the centre, 2 large piles of cat shit and the bucket with no handle.....

Oh crap I inserted the wrong wikipedia entry.