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EVE Online: Nathan Richardson: Why Love the Sandbox
EVE Online's always outspoken Executive Producer Nathan Richardson answers the question: Sandbox games have proven that they stand the test of time. Why do you think the sandbox model appeals to players even after all these years?
Dev Journals By Guest Writer on December 15, 2009
Every so often, we ask a series of MMO developers to answer a single question about game design and / or design theory. This week, we ask about the sandbox design model and why it has remained popular.
Sandbox games have proven that they stand the test of time. Why do you think the sandbox model appeals to players even after all these years?
It’s the other players--that’s the appeal. The sandbox is essentially an open environment, with rules and tools that empower players to become the “content” for everybody else playing. And this manifests itself on almost all levels of gameplay and interaction.
advertisement Playing the market is interesting because it is player-driven and you are competing with everyone else just by the simple act of selling or buying a good. If you run a mission for an agent and the rewards you gain end up on the market, you have become a competitor. Your resources gained through hacking sites or wormhole exploration are part of the supply and demand. Do you process them? Do you manufacture with them? Or do you research and gain a competitive edge in a specific area?
But it’s about more than competition, it is about achieving something with other players. Shooting someone in the face with a spaceship laser is quite rewarding for some parts of the population but when you have thousand player alliances waging war over resources, territory and most importantly reputation, sandbox gameplay becomes truly meaningful. Furthermore, this isn’t just for the Alliances in question. Player actions create a living history and they catalyze other actions. They create something larger than a single-player experience and the “single-player experience” almost ceases to exist no matter how recluse a pilot may be. As developers, we can’t create those dynamics, we can only provide an environment that allows for that to emerge. And when you’re providing tools, players become more and more inventive on how they are used.
It’s like adding bricks. One guy will throw it in someone’s face. Another one will start collecting them just cause it’s cool bricks. Others will sell them for a quick buck. Someone will start building a house with them, maybe on your face. You’ll get pissed and you’ll start … erhm … building on each other. Then the Russians come and evaporate you. But that’s cool, cause you want to maximize human interaction--that’s what creates longevity and real emotions. The lows (i.e. house-on-face) create the meaningful context of the highs (i.e. house-on-other-guys-face) making all the more rewarding.
;)
In the end, the sandbox model let you set your own goals and achieve them with friends. These aren’t artificial goals, not paths that everyone had to before and you’re lucky number 1,121,356 to do it.
These are your goals. Your history. Your legacy. Your bricks.
Check out yesterday's response from Fallen Earth's Wes Platt, here.
Eve...its like bricks.
This article shows well what Eve does very well and that is the sandbox playtype. However what Eve does NOT do well is a sci-fi space game. Most of the times your target is so far away that he is just an icon and how fun is that? Fighting an icon...
Anyway, just wanted to point that out to anyone looking at these magnificent screenshots and read these amazing articles about Eve. A great sandbox MMORPG it is, a great space sci-fi opera it is not.
"Look-At button? What's that?"
Yeah, I fight those "icons" all the time.
Good article.
I went to create an account just to respond to this... I also found out that I apparently already had an account, but only after filling out the whole form... my point is I created an account to respond to this... for the most part.
I disagree with you. I disagree not with your assessment of how most the time you are so far away you only see an icon, but I disagree that EVE is not "a great space sci-fi opera".
Maybe I agree and EVE is not an opera, I don't like opera's, but it is most DEFINETLY an amazing space game. If you think the captain of a real (how ever not real it may be) space ship is going to be looking at anything but icons on a screen you are crazy, especially on the scale of a solar system entire fleets would be represented as a single icon. That is one of the reasons EVE is such an amazing sci-fi game, the scale is incredible. You do not plan massive wars thinking about single ships, you plan thinking about fights involving hundreds of ships and you never once care about a single individual one... OK well maybe a Titan.
You know whats best though, knowing what those icons represent when they go boom. They represent time and effort some one put into bringing it into existance and when it blips off your screen and you know some one on the other end that is now ejecting their pod into space is cursing and yelling you get to smile like never before.
I went to create an account just to respond to this... I also found out that I apparently already had an account, but only after filling out the whole form... my point is I created an account to respond to this... for the most part.
I disagree with you. I disagree not with your assessment of how most the time you are so far away you only see an icon, but I disagree that EVE is not "a great space sci-fi opera".
Maybe I agree and EVE is not an opera, I don't like opera's, but it is most DEFINETLY an amazing space game. If you think the captain of a real (how ever not real it may be) space ship is going to be looking at anything but icons on a screen you are crazy, especially on the scale of a solar system entire fleets would be represented as a single icon. That is one of the reasons EVE is such an amazing sci-fi game, the scale is incredible. You do not plan massive wars thinking about single ships, you plan thinking about fights involving hundreds of ships and you never once care about a single individual one... OK well maybe a Titan.
You know whats best though, knowing what those icons represent when they go boom. They represent time and effort some one put into bringing it into existance and when it blips off your screen and you know some one on the other end that is now ejecting their pod into space is cursing and yelling you get to smile like never before.
I would say Eve is a good game BUT a classic Space opera it is not. It does what it does well. It does not give most players the epic classic space opera feeling in my opinion.
Before you ask what space opera is, a judge once said I know it when I see it.
To each their own.
To each their own.
Absolutely.
And that is why I'm going to say something totally "unpopular" around these parts and that is....
I find sandbox games (the ones made post UO, anyway) to be completely and utterly boring. That's right...I said it...B O R I N G. Because honestly, a sandbox, in my opinion, is only as good as the imagination of the collective group of people playing it. And I don't find that people, over all, have the active imaginations that they had back in the early days of UO.
Granted, I haven't played Darkfall yet. I have avoided it because of the "other side" of my "gaming moodiness".....
However, the seeming lack of imagination isn't really the only thing that makes these games boring to me, but in the opposite direction, as I've gotten older, it has actually become less of a draw to me to log into a game that requires me to "work" to play it. I really don't want to have to think very hard anymore...on SOME days. Now I don't feel like that EVERY day, but some days....I'm just tired. And on those days...a game that "leads me" (like EQ2, LoTRO, WoW) sounds pretty darn good.
On days I have ENERGY....wandering around in Telon (Vanguard) with no particular agenda in mind, suits me fine.
And I rarely, if EVER...have enough energy for PvP any more. I just quite simply do not CARE about PvP.
Welcome to the forces of time and gravity, and a fully developed immunity to caffeine in any format.
I want to respond really bad to this, but I am just not sure what to say... I mean there are plenty of days where I just do not log into EVE because I don't have the energy to do it, and yes EVE is much more a game of work than any other games I know, but thats also why I like it so much. However much I don't want to come home from work and work, I do... and I think this interview actually said it really well: "The lows (i.e. house-on-face) create the meaningful context of the highs (i.e. house-on-other-guys-face) making all the more rewarding." Those highs for me are just worth too much to pass up.
:)
Absolutely.
And that is why I'm going to say something totally "unpopular" around these parts and that is....
I find sandbox games (the ones made post UO, anyway) to be completely and utterly boring. That's right...I said it...B O R I N G. Because honestly, a sandbox, in my opinion, is only as good as the imagination of the collective group of people playing it. And I don't find that people, over all, have the active imaginations that they had back in the early days of UO.
Granted, I haven't played Darkfall yet. I have avoided it because of the "other side" of my "gaming moodiness".....
However, the seeming lack of imagination isn't really the only thing that makes these games boring to me, but in the opposite direction, as I've gotten older, it has actually become less of a draw to me to log into a game that requires me to "work" to play it. I really don't want to have to think very hard anymore...on SOME days. Now I don't feel like that EVERY day, but some days....I'm just tired. And on those days...a game that "leads me" (like EQ2, LoTRO, WoW) sounds pretty darn good.
On days I have ENERGY....wandering around in Telon (Vanguard) with no particular agenda in mind, suits me fine.
And I rarely, if EVER...have enough energy for PvP any more. I just quite simply do not CARE about PvP.
Welcome to the forces of time and gravity, and a fully developed immunity to caffeine in any format.
I've only been playing three years, When should I expect Eve to become like that? You know when I need to "try to make my fun" in the game?
In a game with so many ways to play, In a game thats always changing, In a game that takes years to get a grasp of it fully (if ever) I don't see how anyone could "try to make eve fun".
There are people here that just don't get it and that's fine. To the rest of us Eve is as perfect as you can get.
The ultimate sandbox, the ultimate sci-fi mmo, our space opera.
Oh and if you don't ever have the energy to pvp and don't care for pvp anyway, why are you in a pvp focused games thread?
Eve is a game that's built on pvp conflict, every feature in the game contributes to this, everyone matters because of this.
When you wander in Vanguard you don't matter at all, explorers in Eve do.
You say you don;t want to think when you come home? Well after my long days at the office I need a game that stimulates me or i'll fall asleep. Much like I did in Vanguard or any other pve focused themepark where you truely don't mean a thing.
I've only been playing three years, When should I expect Eve to become like that? You know when I need to "try to make my fun" in the game?
In a game with so many ways to play, In a game thats always changing, In a game that takes years to get a grasp of it fully (if ever) I don't see how anyone could "try to make eve fun".
There are people here that just don't get it and that's fine. To the rest of us Eve is as perfect as you can get.
The ultimate sandbox, the ultimate sci-fi mmo, our space opera.
Oh and if you don't ever have the energy to pvp and don't care for pvp anyway, why are you in a pvp focused games thread?
Eve is a game that's built on pvp conflict, every feature in the game contributes to this, everyone matters because of this.
When you wander in Vanguard you don't matter at all, explorers in Eve do.
You say you don;t want to think when you come home? Well after my long days at the office I need a game that stimulates me or i'll fall asleep. Much like I did in Vanguard or any other pve focused themepark where you truely don't mean a thing.
Well, first of all...I USED to love PvP.
PvP that had a roleplaying type REASON, that is...like back before UO got completely "gang(or gank)-oriented," or hell...even WoW (shock of all shocks) back before they added all the BGs and arena, and people actually did world PvP because they were roleplaying that they hated the other side, not because the HKs really got them much of anything special...just because it was fun to go running into Ironforge "guns blazing" to kill their leader, because...after all...they needed to be taught that we were better than them, and that this "Azeroth" was not going to be a safe place for them. We believed them to be cowards, manipulators, and liars, and the game's lore (back then when a good many of the players came from past Blizzard games) dictated how we felt about them.
Needless to say....that didn't last long in THAT game. *sigh*
I've also played Guild Wars, and Warhammer, and other "PvP-centric" games. I have not always "not cared" about PvP. Part of me wishes I could "get the love back" for that style of play. But it hasn't happened yet. And I think...it's more because I'm TIRED than anything else. The juvenile "smack talking" that goes on now....just exhausts me. It seems like a waste of time. And...it didn't USED to feel that way.
Oh, and I also played EVE, for a while. Long enough to accumulate some very nice ships, loads of isk (or what seemed like loads to me), and had outfitted my ships very nicely for mining. I was in a carebear corp that predominantly just accumulated vast wealth selling to PvPers. We built ships, did blueprints, and I....I mined my ass off. But eventually....I got bored.
And it's not that the PvP was "too much" for me...I got pod killed a couple of times, and my HULK blown to bits...twice. I still played...for a while. It's just not really what I'm looking for in a game. EVE is great, I think, and innovative, in some aspects....but it's not for everyone any more than any other game is.
You know, the more I think about it...the more I wonder if I have just, either temporarily or permanently, grown away from the MMO genre, both PvP AND PvE. Because I'm not enjoying either now like I used to. And so...I've been playing a lot of single player games where there is no pressure to excel, no one to be "accountable" to after work (other than my family), and no "keeping up with the Joneses" thing going on.
By the way....this is posted in General Discussion, not on the EVE board, so being that I have enjoyed PvP in the past....I felt I had a right to respond. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but as you can see...lol...that didn't stop me. ;)
As much as I loved my time in EVE, the biggest strength of the "sandbox" can be the biggest weakness if the company doesn't compensate for it. Interacting with other players is *all* that will keep you in EVE because the pve is boring/mind numbing/horrid.
If you can find and maintain those interactions with other players, the game is great...when you don't or when it all breaks down, you're left with garbage. As much as EVE is a pvp-centric game, finding ways to make mission running/ratting/mining/exploring more challenging, interesting, visually exciting etc would do far more to boost sub numbers and retention than any pvp-tweak or new "sandbox" element.
PS I *have* fallen asleep in "pvp" in EVE and heard other corp mates do the same....POS sieges anyone? or that prolonged gatecamp after you've already been on for 8 hours+ straight?
Absolutely.
And that is why I'm going to say something totally "unpopular" around these parts and that is....
I find sandbox games (the ones made post UO, anyway) to be completely and utterly boring. That's right...I said it...B O R I N G. Because honestly, a sandbox, in my opinion, is only as good as the imagination of the collective group of people playing it. And I don't find that people, over all, have the active imaginations that they had back in the early days of UO.
Granted, I haven't played Darkfall yet. I have avoided it because of the "other side" of my "gaming moodiness".....
However, the seeming lack of imagination isn't really the only thing that makes these games boring to me, but in the opposite direction, as I've gotten older, it has actually become less of a draw to me to log into a game that requires me to "work" to play it. I really don't want to have to think very hard anymore...on SOME days. Now I don't feel like that EVERY day, but some days....I'm just tired. And on those days...a game that "leads me" (like EQ2, LoTRO, WoW) sounds pretty darn good.
On days I have ENERGY....wandering around in Telon (Vanguard) with no particular agenda in mind, suits me fine.
And I rarely, if EVER...have enough energy for PvP any more. I just quite simply do not CARE about PvP.
Welcome to the forces of time and gravity, and a fully developed immunity to caffeine in any format.
I've only been playing three years, When should I expect Eve to become like that? You know when I need to "try to make my fun" in the game?
In a game with so many ways to play, In a game thats always changing, In a game that takes years to get a grasp of it fully (if ever) I don't see how anyone could "try to make eve fun".
There are people here that just don't get it and that's fine. To the rest of us Eve is as perfect as you can get.
The ultimate sandbox, the ultimate sci-fi mmo, our space opera.
Oh and if you don't ever have the energy to pvp and don't care for pvp anyway, why are you in a pvp focused games thread?
Eve is a game that's built on pvp conflict, every feature in the game contributes to this, everyone matters because of this.
When you wander in Vanguard you don't matter at all, explorers in Eve do.
You say you don;t want to think when you come home? Well after my long days at the office I need a game that stimulates me or i'll fall asleep. Much like I did in Vanguard or any other pve focused themepark where you truely don't mean a thing.
well, 5 years and its still fun so ... have to see in another 5 i reckon.. anyway, i pretty much agree with you, theres nothing wrong with themepark games as such, and if your happy playing games that arent that intellectually challenging then fine i guess, its not a bad thing either, and believe it or not you can do that in Eve too, try mining
as for the rest, Eve is, imo, the greatest space game since elite
Well, first of all...I USED to love PvP.
PvP that had a roleplaying type REASON, that is...like back before UO got completely "gang(or gank)-oriented," or hell...even WoW (shock of all shocks) back before they added all the BGs and arena, and people actually did world PvP because they were roleplaying that they hated the other side, not because the HKs really got them much of anything special...just because it was fun to go running into Ironforge "guns blazing" to kill their leader, because...after all...they needed to be taught that we were better than them, and that this "Azeroth" was not going to be a safe place for them. We believed them to be cowards, manipulators, and liars, and the game's lore (back then when a good many of the players came from past Blizzard games) dictated how we felt about them.
But pvp does have a role in Eve, Either to the roleplayers or the low sec and 0.0 folks that pvp for territory or FW. It's not meaningless, I remember pvping in UO, hunting PKers its the same imo.
Needless to say....that didn't last long in THAT game. *sigh*
I've also played Guild Wars, and Warhammer, and other "PvP-centric" games. I have not always "not cared" about PvP. Part of me wishes I could "get the love back" for that style of play. But it hasn't happened yet. And I think...it's more because I'm TIRED than anything else. The juvenile "smack talking" that goes on now....just exhausts me. It seems like a waste of time. And...it didn't USED to feel that way.
IN other games that just have you pvp for a place in a ladder system or for trivial item rewards off a vendor I would agree but in Eve we have stuff to fight over, our very way of Eve life.
Oh, and I also played EVE, for a while. Long enough to accumulate some very nice ships, loads of isk (or what seemed like loads to me), and had outfitted my ships very nicely for mining. I was in a carebear corp that predominantly just accumulated vast wealth selling to PvPers. We built ships, did blueprints, and I....I mined my ass off. But eventually....I got bored.
See you never really experienced eve pvp, other than wardecs am I right? ever fought in 0.0? ever defended a wormhole? ever fought in FW? Its a totally different experience.
And it's not that the PvP was "too much" for me...I got pod killed a couple of times, and my HULK blown to bits...twice. I still played...for a while. It's just not really what I'm looking for in a game. EVE is great, I think, and innovative, in some aspects....but it's not for everyone any more than any other game is.
Sounds like You may need to try a different side of Eve, Being pod killed sucks when you can't fight back. If you ever try Eve again give a different side of the game a try.
You know, the more I think about it...the more I wonder if I have just, either temporarily or permanently, grown away from the MMO genre, both PvP AND PvE. Because I'm not enjoying either now like I used to. And so...I've been playing a lot of single player games where there is no pressure to excel, no one to be "accountable" to after work (other than my family), and no "keeping up with the Joneses" thing going on.
Other than Eve online I'm right there with ya. So tired of the genre right now. Been wasting all my free videogame time on Dragon age and Assassin's creed 2. After playing 13 years straight of mmos one tends to get tired.
By the way....this is posted in General Discussion, not on the EVE board, so being that I have enjoyed PvP in the past....I felt I had a right to respond. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but as you can see...lol...that didn't stop me. ;)
Your right, for some reason I thought this was in the eve forum. I'm sorry. I'm a bit busy atm I've been posting in the new Eve in game browser I missed what section this was in.
in My three years I have yet to really dig deep into the industrial side of Eve. I;ve gone as far as a Hulk (that I used once) and a basic hauler for spring cleaning.
See thats the great thing about Eve. There's so much too it that you could play for years and not try everything.
I know people only getting into exploration now after five years.
I was reading about being a drug dealer in Eve (booster production) and it was like reading a novel, how technical that aspect of the game is. I gave up lol.
All this time and there are still things for me to strive for.
I've only been playing three years, When should I expect Eve to become like that? You know when I need to "try to make my fun" in the game?
In a game with so many ways to play, In a game thats always changing, In a game that takes years to get a grasp of it fully (if ever) I don't see how anyone could "try to make eve fun".
There are people here that just don't get it and that's fine. To the rest of us Eve is as perfect as you can get.
The ultimate sandbox, the ultimate sci-fi mmo, our space opera.
Oh and if you don't ever have the energy to pvp and don't care for pvp anyway, why are you in a pvp focused games thread?
Eve is a game that's built on pvp conflict, every feature in the game contributes to this, everyone matters because of this.
When you wander in Vanguard you don't matter at all, explorers in Eve do.
You say you don;t want to think when you come home? Well after my long days at the office I need a game that stimulates me or i'll fall asleep. Much like I did in Vanguard or any other pve focused themepark where you truely don't mean a thing.
1. This is not a "pvp focused games thread", it's "Why love the sandbox thread".
2. Considering the nature of the this thread (as said in the title) it's about all things in general pertaining to a sandbox MMORPG.
3. This is a discussion forum, not a "metalhead980" get's to decide who's viewpoints are worthy of publication or recognition forum. Hint: That's what the user blogs are for. (pst..Those are kind of like personal forums that you can control..nifty huh?)
4. This thread was posted in the "General" forum, therefore it was not specifically targeted to only Eve players, but to anyone that has interest in the sandbox style of play. (Again, a general title that signifies the subject is broad and limitless).
5. There is no need to get personal (You quoted "Oh and if you don't ever have the energy to pvp and don't care for pvp anyway, why are you in a pvp focused games thread?"). "girlgeek" didn't attack anyone, in any way say anything negative about anyone that enjoys PvP, flame or degrade anyone or anythnig pertaining to PvP, nor did she say that her "opinion" was absolute.
6. Everyone is different and has thier own ways of getting the same results. (You quoted "You say you don;t want to think when you come home? Well after my long days at the office I need a game that stimulates me or i'll fall asleep. Much like I did in Vanguard or any other pve focused themepark where you truely don't mean a thing.")
Nonetheless, everyone is entitled to thier opinion, even if that opinion is fuled by personal tastes or emotional attatchment, or self employed arrogance rather than with an objective state of mind.
While EVE is probably the better Sandbox game out there, I think Mr Richardson's metaphor of a brick is a bit mis-representative of EVE.
EVE simply does not have that level of granularity to it. EVE controls the number of Bricks you have (mining), and it controls the way in which those Bricks can be arranged (blueprints). Compare the old Lego sets which were free form and the new themed Lego sets in which you build what is depicted on the box. EVE is the latter. You cannot innovate in EVE.
Now if happen to agree with Mr Richardson that a sandbox game is, ideally, like using a brick. But EVE has no where near the amount of player agency implied by such a system.
Not trying to speak for CCP but the other benefit of a sandbox, you don't have a bunch of maxed level characters standing around waiting for you to add 10 more levels which they will plow through in 48 hours. You don't have endless rants about end game content either. Sandboxes have their own set of rants, like "WHERE"S MY MOTHERSHIP FIXES YOU MOTHER…".
In a truly great sandbox, like EVE, you live in the game in a way. You don't wait for the game to tell you which next linear progression to accomplish, which you keep doing until the end and either A) you wait for more content; B) create a new toon and do it all again or C)play some PVP but with no real meaningful loss. This is OK though, I know many people that want to be lead down a path because they find it entertaining. The problem comes when they have reached the end of that path and have started over and done it 2 or 3 times.
Sandboxes can require real effort, which many people will find it to much like work. In Eve's case, people who watch the combat might think it's boring and/or spreadsheet-like but what they fail to understand is those two guys fighting is someone is going to loose real time and effort. Took some guy months to create his faction fitted ship only to have someone blow it up an hour after he got it, that is the thrill and/or fear you get every time you undock. Maybe someone rage quits over something like that but someone goes out and tells that glorious victory story which generates real enthusiasm for some and fear for others. In the end that story is not some fiction drafted buy some writer in a game studio but an actual story that unfolded between two real players, sandbox done well.
Myself, love EVE and play it daily but every once and a while I like the theme park so I turn to DDO for a few quests. Looking at DDO, I can clearly see my end game but in EVE I have no clue where and what I will be farther down the road.
1. This is not a "pvp focused games thread", it's "Why love the sandbox thread".
2. Considering the nature of the this thread (as said in the title) it's about all things in general pertaining to a sandbox MMORPG.
3. This is a discussion forum, not a "metalhead980" get's to decide who's viewpoints are worthy of publication or recognition forum. Hint: That's what the user blogs are for. (pst..Those are kind of like personal forums that you can control..nifty huh?)
4. This thread was posted in the "General" forum, therefore it was not specifically targeted to only Eve players, but to anyone that has interest in the sandbox style of play. (Again, a general title that signifies the subject is broad and limitless).
5. There is no need to get personal (You quoted "Oh and if you don't ever have the energy to pvp and don't care for pvp anyway, why are you in a pvp focused games thread?"). "girlgeek" didn't attack anyone, in any way say anything negative about anyone that enjoys PvP, flame or degrade anyone or anythnig pertaining to PvP, nor did she say that her "opinion" was absolute.
6. Everyone is different and has thier own ways of getting the same results. (You quoted "You say you don;t want to think when you come home? Well after my long days at the office I need a game that stimulates me or i'll fall asleep. Much like I did in Vanguard or any other pve focused themepark where you truely don't mean a thing.")
Nonetheless, everyone is entitled to thier opinion, even if that opinion is fuled by personal tastes or emotional attatchment, or self employed arrogance rather than with an objective state of mind.
Next time read further down the thread to see if two individuals continued their conversation before you butt your nose in defending someone like your their daddy.
I already apologized for mistaking this as a Eve topic thread.
pay attention!
Next time read further down the thread to see if two individuals continued their conversation before you butt your nose in defending someone like your their daddy.
I already apologized for mistaking this as a Eve topic thread.
pay attention!
I do apologize for the late and misplaced reply, though again you are making this personal by being demeaning. It seems I pay as much attention as you have good grammar skills. "Your" in the context that you used it in should have been You're"...as in "you are". But hey, We are only human.
I do apologize for the late and misplaced reply, though again you are making this personal by being demeaning. It seems I pay as much attention as you have good grammar skills. "Your" in the context that you used it in should have been You're"...as in "you are". But hey, We are only human.
Since you were so kind to point out my grammar mistakes on a video game forum after a hard days work, I'll do the same.
Spelling mistakes are highlighted in red, something I normally don't point out like a douche bag on a meaningless game forum.
Oh and reread my replies in this thread, I already said I was quickly typing replies in my in game web browser while playing Eve. You seem to gloss over this however looking for something to toss in my face.
I would have to say that the establishment of an actual bank (no matter the outcome), or the months-long espionage antics are proof enough that it's possible to innovate in EVE. Your focus is too narrow. All MMOs will have mechanics that cannot be changed by the players - just some games focus on providing mechanics without defined usage attached.
The brick thing is an analogy, and by nature imperfect, but it's close. There was (and remains) nothing coded into the game that demands 0.0 space is a ganking paradise for instance. If the players wanted it, by this time next year 0.0 could be player-policed and just as safe as Empire. Of course, it would be boring without all the politics and maneuvering for space - but it's possible. That's the key thing of EVE, there really are fewer limits on what you can and can't do than in other MMOs.
EVE is a very "masculine" oriented game. It feeds the testosterone-driven impulses of human nature. Generally the people that find EVE boring are the ones that really have no experience / time / desire to make their own goals and achieving them. EVE requires people to have an ego to get the most out of it. Most other MMOs feed you the story, EVE hands you a recipe book and says "good luck with that".
Yes, I have to agree with this.
A few examples of past and present player generated "content".
wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Interstellar_Starbase_Syndicate_%28Player_alliance%29
wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Sub-warp_Racing_Venture
wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/ISRC_Racing
There are also more then 3 radio stations (granted, they don't use any ingame resource other then chat windows and ingame prizes). There was (possibly still is) a privately operated cemetary for all the dead frozen bodies. There are pvp tournaments, lotteries, blogs ....
I'm not saying that those things don't exist in other games aswell. In eve you can potentially reach out to the whole community since we all live in the same universe.
Not sure what you mean but imo Eve is much too slow to be "masculine oriented" . It is painfully slow getting anywhere in this game (and I just dont mean getting from point A to B but also getting enough skills, money etc) that it appeals much more to people who have patience rather than people who are eager to "fight", which is what I would think testosterone-driven impulses would be.
FPS/sport/fighting games are as "masculine" oriented as you get in games. They are UTF equivalent of games where as games like Eve are more for chess players who spend more time planning something than actually executing them. And it mostly comes down to numbers. What is their shield resistance to my damage type? What is their angular velocity? How much profit do I get from buying this here and selling it there?
Someone who comes to Eve with the mindset that they want to be great pilots will not get very far unless they do all the pre-planning and work needed (such as getting a steady $$ income and training the appropriate skills etc).
ummm even masculine sports/activites require preplanning and preparation.
because eve has slow travel and rts combat its not masculine?
Have you ever played Eve or should I say understood Eve?
If there's one game with apes beating their chests and trying to own people through brute force its Eve online.
Regardless of some folks opinoins, I feel EVE does a good job in providng an environment / tolls to go with it to encourage player interaction. This resuls in the players creating their own content and interacting at a personal level.
That's what sandbox games offer people, vs a more theme oriented gaming experience that tells a player a story, without ever really involving them in it.
Edit: Another way to look at it is, in EVE you are a character in a story, usually without truely realizing it until afterwards. In other games you know you are just reading/playing through a story and it lacks the immersion of the sandbox.
Not sure what you mean but imo Eve is much too slow to be "masculine oriented" . It is painfully slow getting anywhere in this game (and I just dont mean getting from point A to B but also getting enough skills, money etc) that it appeals much more to people who have patience rather than people who are eager to "fight", which is what I would think testosterone-driven impulses would be.
FPS/sport/fighting games are as "masculine" oriented as you get in games. They are UTF equivalent of games where as games like Eve are more for chess players who spend more time planning something than actually executing them. And it mostly comes down to numbers. What is their shield resistance to my damage type? What is their angular velocity? How much profit do I get from buying this here and selling it there?
Someone who comes to Eve with the mindset that they want to be great pilots will not get very far unless they do all the pre-planning and work needed (such as getting a steady $$ income and training the appropriate skills etc).
ummm even masculine sports/activites require preplanning and preparation.
because eve has slow travel and rts combat its not masculine?
Have you ever played Eve or should I say understood Eve?
If there's one game with apes beating their chests and trying to own people through brute force its Eve online.
Brute force? Eve is about ISK and resource gathering. The one who can muster enough resources to have an, almost, endless amount of weapons is the one who wins, not the best pilot.
Eve is much more politics than it is brute force fighting. I guess that could be considered masculine for some but for me a game that is masculine is american football or UFC, not politics. Politics is about backstabbing and cheating, where as in american football you look your opponent in the eye much like FPS/RTS games.
In Eve combat is mostly about ganking. Putting up warp bubbles to gang rape people going through or gank people who are ratting. If that is "masculine" for you then I guess we have a very different idea what it takes to be a man and what it takes to be a ganking, coward.
Brute force? Eve is about ISK and resource gathering. The one who can muster enough resources to have an, almost, endless amount of weapons is the one who wins, not the best pilot.
Sry M8 but I really don't think you're qualified to give an honest opinion on this. As someone who is, the question of the need for pilot skill is not easy to answer. In some ways it is the holy grail of EVE. Anyone who plays knows this. Having pilots that can fly and win in less expensive ships is one of the fastest ways to defeat an enemy over time. Anyone that spends anytime around kill mails knows this too.
Still, you have to have the Capitals to back it up or it's just allot of fun. One thing is for certain, as it relates to you and these forums pilot skill in EVE is vastly underestimated.
BTW......what's so masculine about beating up on a bunch of NPC's anyway LOL. I'm not sure if masculine and MMO ever really go together, but to the extent that they do, EVE surely has more of it than many other popular MMO's. I'm come on, it's a game based off player VS player combat. TBH DF probably has it beat tho
Sry M8 but I really don't think you're qualified to give an honest opinion on this. As someone who is, the question of the need for pilot skill is not easy to answer. In some ways it is the holy grail of EVE. Anyone who plays knows this. Having pilots that can fly and win in less expensive ships is one of the fastest ways to defeat an enemy over time. Anyone that spends anytime around kill mails knows this too.
Still, you have to have the Capitals to back it up or it's just allot of fun. One thing is for certain, as it relates to you and these forums pilot skill in EVE is vastly underestimated.
BTW......what's so masculine about beating up on a bunch of NPC's anyway LOL. I'm not sure if masculine and MMO ever really go together, but to the extent that they do, EVE surely has more of it than many other popular MMO's. I'm come on, it's a game based off player VS player combat. TBH DF probably has it beat tho
Qualified to give an honest opinion about that? I play Eve dont I? I am in a 0.0 alliance and have seen first hand how fighting is done there.
And just being PvP does not qualify for it being masculine. Chess can be PvP, so can checkers.
What I think defines mascunality, or maybe macho is the correct word, is direct confrontation. Not backstabbing and ganking which is very common in Eve and rarely do you get any kind of even fights. I dont know for you but having 10 guys hitting one guy does not strike me as being masculine.
EDIT: Not sure where you got NPCs from. I didnt mention anything about NPCs.
Sry M8 but I really don't think you're qualified to give an honest opinion on this. As someone who is, the question of the need for pilot skill is not easy to answer. In some ways it is the holy grail of EVE. Anyone who plays knows this. Having pilots that can fly and win in less expensive ships is one of the fastest ways to defeat an enemy over time. Anyone that spends anytime around kill mails knows this too.
Still, you have to have the Capitals to back it up or it's just allot of fun. One thing is for certain, as it relates to you and these forums pilot skill in EVE is vastly underestimated.
BTW......what's so masculine about beating up on a bunch of NPC's anyway LOL. I'm not sure if masculine and MMO ever really go together, but to the extent that they do, EVE surely has more of it than many other popular MMO's. I'm come on, it's a game based off player VS player combat. TBH DF probably has it beat tho
Qualified to give an honest opinion about that? I play Eve dont I? I am in a 0.0 alliance and have seen first hand how fighting is done there.
And just being PvP does not qualify for it being masculine. Chess can be PvP, so can checkers.
What I think defines mascunality, or maybe macho is the correct word, is direct confrontation. Not backstabbing and ganking which is very common in Eve and rarely do you get any kind of even fights. I dont know for you but having 10 guys hitting one guy does not strike me as being masculine.
EDIT: Not sure where you got NPCs from. I didnt mention anything about NPCs.
For someone who's qualified you certainly don't do it very well.
I have been in thousands of PVP engagments in EVE and less than 10% of them would I consider a gank (by either side). OFC I don't live in a idealized world of special rules that makes everything fair. Only NPC's fight this way and only people that fight them talk like that. Most of the time you just lose because the other side is better. Often this means having more younger players that will fly anything and are always on. You don't fight a single battle. You can fight for days or weeks and the better side wins.
Where does ganking come into it. TBH only NPC's get ganked, most people get what they deserve and that's the beauty of EVE. Someone defeats you and you go after them or you don't, but you don't blame them for being better.......That's just lame!
I do apologize for the late and misplaced reply, though again you are making this personal by being demeaning. It seems I pay as much attention as you have good grammar skills. "Your" in the context that you used it in should have been You're"...as in "you are". But hey, We are only human.
Since you were so kind to point out my grammar mistakes on a video game forum after a hard days work, I'll do the same.
Spelling mistakes are highlighted in red, something I normally don't point out like a douche bag on a meaningless game forum.
Oh and reread my replies in this thread, I already said I was quickly typing replies in my in game web browser while playing Eve. You seem to gloss over this however looking for something to toss in my face.
You're fun to argue with. As unfortune would had it, my dislexia gets the best of me sometimes. Thanks for pointing out my grammar mistakes. I'll have to look for those words in the future. Still taking all this so serious? This a just a meaningless game forum...right?
not a sci-fi space game because you use data readouts from ship sensors rather than an eyeball?
oh dear, i can't breath, best joke ever.
^^ This,
An easy win here for nurgles.
And a loss for Yamota for not getting the point of EvE. And not knowing about the Look At feature in EvE that lets you focus on anything you want.