Well the only good way to rid the economy of an excess of PHAT LOOTZ that I have ever seen work is simply what wow did.  Soulbinding the item so that once you use the item it's only valuable to you and cannot ever be used by another player.  However maybe you can do it in a slightly more RP related way and simple look at it as fitting your armor or balancing your weapon for that player (this will increase the gains of the armor or weapon to 100% of what it says rather than 60 or 70%) and then it cannot be undone.  That solves the item problems but as far as currency goes i don't believe logicly there is a possible way to rid the world of that problem.  As long as monsters and vendors are printing money like you said it's just not possible.  The only way to combat this problem is to figure out a way to feed the monsters/vendors money from the economy somehow creating and economic circle.  Even if you took money away from the mobs entirely and they just drop furs and whatnot, where does the vendor get the money to buy it from the player... from the "void" ofcourse.  The only way I can think of is that vendors give quests to players to retrieve resources in exchange for experience or perhapse a weapon or item made with the resources they just retrieved.  The vendor then has a dynamic inventory like any player that it functions on ...to make the weapons they sell... to make money to buy items from players..  Then this system will be self sustaining in a loop that was began by the players giving the resources to the vendors in exchange for XP instead of money.  Also, beasts should drop no money... trolls and humanoid creatures can drop money but some way needs to be developed to put the money on them in the first place.  Maybe when a player is defeated in combat the money they didn't have banked  is taken and devided among the faction of mobs that defeated them.  And to top it all off.... avoid a long grinding leveling process in which 10's of thousands of mobs are slain.   As far as  not having too many money sinks... make upkeep very low on low levels and high on higher levels (that much is obvious).  Leave the gameplay simple and easy to achieve goals to begin with, but then the learning curve needs to start to be forced at a certain point.  Give the player a good chunk of time to learn and develope and then force them to learn to play at higher levels.  It's fantasy not communism... the exceptional people will rise to greatness and the casual players will be as great as they can be.  I understand the desire simu has to make the perfect world where everyone can be great.... but the perfect world isn't possible, that's why it doesn't exsist in a game yet.  Basicly, you shouldn't deploy game mechanics in an effort to make the game balanced for the weak gamer... Focus on the majority. (which are people that CAN infact adapt to a bit of a harsh envoirnment)  Mindless gaming/farming/grinding... is not fun gaming..  Yes I know the IQ needed to play the average mmo lately has been falling rapidly, but i don't believe simu should continue the trend.  I do however see the need to make the game run for the masses but have to also remember that the masses aren't stupid, They adjust to their own lives (as is proven with the fact that they can afford to pay for the game) and they can adapt to what few problems a game will present them.  I really wish i was smart enough to solve this age old problem but I do beleive that is a nice start.

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Originally posted by Traxbro
Well the only good way to rid the economy of an excess of PHAT LOOTZ that I have ever seen work is simply what wow did.  Soulbinding the item so that once you use the item it's only valuable to you and cannot ever be used by another player. 

This actually causes as many problems as it helps. It's not a good system really. Ninja looting becomes much worse with this, and it really doesnt adrdess most of the problems. A better way would just to eliminate "ph4t l3wt".

However maybe you can do it in a slightly more RP related way and simple look at it as fitting your armor or balancing your weapon for that player (this will increase the gains of the armor or weapon to 100% of what it says rather than 60 or 70%) and then it cannot be undone.  That solves the item problems but as far as currency goes i don't believe logicly there is a possible way to rid the world of that problem.  As long as monsters and vendors are printing money like you said it's just not possible.  The only way to combat this problem is to figure out a way to feed the monsters/vendors money from the economy somehow creating and economic circle.  Even if you took money away from the mobs entirely and they just drop furs and whatnot, where does the vendor get the money to buy it from the player... from the "void" ofcourse.  The only way I can think of is that vendors give quests to players to retrieve resources in exchange for experience or perhapse a weapon or item made with the resources they just retrieved.  The vendor then has a dynamic inventory like any player that it functions on ...to make the weapons they sell... to make money to buy items from players..  Then this system will be self sustaining in a loop that was began by the players giving the resources to the vendors in exchange for XP instead of money.  Also, beasts should drop no money... trolls and humanoid creatures can drop money but some way needs to be developed to put the money on them in the first place.  Maybe when a player is defeated in combat the money they didn't have banked  is taken and devided among the faction of mobs that defeated them.  And to top it all off.... avoid a long grinding leveling process in which 10's of thousands of mobs are slain.   As far as  not having too many money sinks... make upkeep very low on low levels and high on higher levels (that much is obvious).  Leave the gameplay simple and easy to achieve goals to begin with, but then the learning curve needs to start to be forced at a certain point.  Give the player a good chunk of time to learn and develope and then force them to learn to play at higher levels.  It's fantasy not communism... the exceptional people will rise to greatness and the casual players will be as great as they can be. 

Sorry, this is a really idiotic statement. Playing a game 15+ hours a day does not make you exceptional. Most of your supposedly "exceptional" players couldn't carry alot of "casual" players jockstraps. I see alot of moronic corrilation between the 2, and it is in no way true. I dont have tons of gaming time anymore, but can play circles around the vast  majority of the 1337 pissants out there, most of whom can't play a lick, but bungle their way through on /timeplayed alone. Having no life and being a loser I don't think should be autoatically rewarded, or seen as "exceptional".

 I understand the desire simu has to make the perfect world where everyone can be great.... but the perfect world isn't possible, that's why it doesn't exsist in a game yet.  Basicly, you shouldn't deploy game mechanics in an effort to make the game balanced for the weak gamer... Focus on the majority. 

Once again, If I only play 20 hours a week, that doesnt make me a weak gamer. And you playing 70+ a week doesnt make you a strong gamer. It just means you play more. And the majority dont play 70+ hours a week anyway, so by your statement "exceptional" (ha) players shouldnt be catered to anyway. And it's not like we dont have games that cater to people that have no life. Let's also not make every MMO out there a EQ clone (which is what WoW is, but on training wheels).

 (which are people that CAN infact adapt to a bit of a harsh envoirnment)  Mindless gaming/farming/grinding... is not fun gaming.. 

But your "exceptional" gamer relies on this to get ahead, it's the only realy advantage they have over someone that goes to work and has a life and family.

Yes I know the IQ needed to play the average mmo lately has been falling rapidly, but i don't believe simu should continue the trend.  I do however see the need to make the game run for the masses but have to also remember that the masses aren't stupid,

Actually the masses can be very stupid.

They adjust to their own lives (as is proven with the fact that they can afford to pay for the game) and they can adapt to what few problems a game will present them.  I really wish i was smart enough to solve this age old problem but I do beleive that is a nice start.

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Nice job Trolling... I never said anything about time.  The Gm's were talking about not making the game too difficult.  And by exceptional i meant playing skill.  You were the one that introduced time into what was said not me.  So everytime you meantioned time being any kind of a factor you were totally and completely wrong. If anything I advocated a quicker leveling process so everyone could be on equal terms doing end game content faster.  So i don't know where you pulled any of your ideas from.   All you just did was quote me, and then say something that had almost nothing to do with anything i just said.   And as far as you calling the masses stupid... you're obviously one of those people that believes themselves to be a 133t gamer who's better than the average person... which makes you not worth comment. 

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Originally posted by Traxbro

Nice job Trolling... I never said anything about time. 

True, but it was implied though when you compared exceptional gamers to casual gamers. Since "casual gamer" is usually defining someone that plays a certain amount per week. Not skill level. If I was incorrect about that I apologize. The fact that I see many people equate time played to skill all the time was what I based my assumption on.

The Gm's were talking about not making the game too difficult.  And by exceptional i meant playing skill.  You were the one that introduced time into what was said not me.  So everytime you meantioned time being any kind of a factor you were totally and completely wrong. 

I stand corrected. I made a assumption based on my past experience with people on this subject. One that was in this case quite wrong.

If anything I advocated a quicker leveling process so everyone could be on equal terms doing end game content faster. 

That you did, and at the time with my previous assumption I saw this as being hypocritical. Again I stand corrected.

So i don't know where you pulled any of your ideas from.   All you just did was quote me, and then say something that had almost nothing to do with anything i just said.   And as far as you calling the masses stupid... you're obviously one of those people that believes themselves to be a 133t gamer who's better than the average person... which makes you not worth comment. 

Well, you are correct on some of that. I do consider myself a good player, but very much anti-1337.  I read some of your comments and interperted them and saw another person trying to advocate /timeplayed being the sole variable that means anything in a MMO, and I jumped the gun. I have seen alot of it recently, and hate it and have a quick trigger. This time it went off in my face. Once again, I stand corrected.

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No harm done.  You're obviously not what i thought you to be at first.  Don't believe i've ever seen someone apologize on a forum aside from me LOL.  Honestly I'm all about pvp, So as far as i'm concerned the faster I can get done with the leveling process and get on to competitions of skill with other players the happier I am.  Also, long grinding pve may be fun on release, but it will always end up in the same place.... PL services, exploiting, macroing/botting... I just don't want to see that happen in HJ

I agree with you on all points. Although I'm not as big of a PvPer as you seem to be (I really did enjoy RvR in DaoC though), I'd like the game to be less like work, where you end up spending huge amounts of time "grinding' to get to something worthwhile doing. Thing is, I see alot of people wanting HJ to be something different, and they they start suggesting the exact same things from other games that would just make HJ another EQ/WoW clone. It's been driving me nuts, hence my short fuse and idiocy.

I like to think I'm a big enough person to be able to own up to it when I do something or in this case say something stupid, hehe. It doesnt happen very often, but I'll be the first to say it if I act like a idiot, heh.

I really wish a GM would post about my vendor idea.  Maybe too hard to impliment?  maybe the vendors would run out of money?  If nothing else when it was out of money it could go ahead and pull from the void but atleast it would greatly slow the inflation process.  Being outlvled isn't that bad IMO as long as a lvl 60 isn't immune to a lvl 50 in all forms because they have more levels.  If they have better damage and better life or whatever sure... they should win... but i hate games where level is the deciding factor

okay.... back to topic.
Economy.
Dont make banks...
...make moneylanders (it sounds better ^^(are they called moneylanders? I am no native english speaker (or writer)))
they take your money, keep it save, but you loose a small percentage of it (thus as faster you spend it on equipment the better for you. If you die in combat (enemy teritory) you loose most of your cash.

Let us spend some money for the care of our equipment (whetstones, oils etc) that cancels decay of equipment - the better the wyr on the euipment, the more expansive are the oils, whetstones etc...

taxes for houses owned by players (in games I like taxes ^^ )... the saver the house the higher the taxes...

taxes for guilds

costs for our steeds (mounts) - they run slower if not fed properly...

Costs for pets - if you want a bada$$ wild weasel that clings to and eats your foes face, better keep it well fed and healthy...

more to come...

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Originally posted by HJ-Stencil

Hey Guys good posts  Nah GREAT posting!

Wrapping paper and attached ‘cards’.

If we did this WE MAY have just designed a system that every group and every guild requires.  Do you have BOT accounts just to mail yourself buffs?  Are you fully buffed at all times?  If you aren’t buffed you are now an underdog.

   Yeah, I don't understand the type of people who would abuse this type of thing. Then again, I'm not very logical, so... I like the RP value a mail system presents, but in order to make use of it, you need people whom you'd actually mail...

The more you farm, the more you lose out.

   Again, something I never understood. Being more powerful does not necessarily equal having more fun...

Hero’s Journey LOTTO Syndicate.

This could be a great idea, but I for one don’t like gambling.  It promotes some very poor assumptions when you participate in things like this.  I know we can put in some moderation tools to help keep this from being an addiction, but we may have to be very careful.  I don’t know about Internet laws and gambling (even if you are gambling for fake money).  Also I don’t know how much gambling will be accepting when we don’t have an age limit on who plays our game.  How will the game appear to parents where we have gambling for all ages including your 12 year old?  Lets get them addicted to gambling before they hit the real age to do it for real money.  Now again I say this could be a great idea, just has a lot of things that could cause big trouble.

   Ok, I've got to call you on this one. I happen to like gambling in games, and I don't see how it could be an issue. I gamble in offline games all the time, and they don't seem to have a problem with it. The lotto was ok in Suikoden 3, but they messed it up for 4... I don't remember if it was even in 5. I know it's different in offline games, but... Don't understand why. Most mini-games are some form of gambling or another.

   I want to set up a 3 Card Monty stand thing in the street and take people's money... Unrelated, but it'd totally rule nonetheless...

Dueling Arenas – for CASH!

This is a match of skill rather than mostly chance, so I am all for this kind of challenge.  It doesn’t REQUIRE any one to participate, and all parties should know their own skill before laying down collateral as support for their skill claims.  This might be considered gambling, but if you truly know your stuff it can more closely be compared to retail IRL.  The buyer buys things that he knows he can resell later on.  In some extremely rare cases he is stuck with his produce, which he can’t sell.  Hence nothing in life is truly a 100% win situation, but a Duelist if he truly knows his trade can be a very high percentage of coming out on top.

   If you made it enough of a social scene, I might bet on some people, but I wouldn't participate in the fights.

    I think there should be various races for people to bet on, as welll. You know, like frog races, crab races, tortoise races, and rat races. It's be awesome, I guess...

Make death hurt…

This is a tough balance, because death is a good way to make the challenge of the game feel more real to the person, but it can also be to steep and cause people to quite because of the frustration.  So it’s a necessary evil, but balance is a issue here.

   Aw, man... I die alot, and I'm always poor...

Barbershop Feature

Great idea again, again Simu has utilized this in the past with great response.

   Corn rows, baby! Hehe...

The Elanthian Journal Of Hero's

Also utilized in the past, not sure on the response from gamers about this though.  And they didn’t use it as ranking system, just news as to what is going on in the world.

   That'd be kind of cool, I guess. Even if it wasn't a ranking system, I'd never make it in, though...

GM Event Items

This is a huge staple for Simu in its past games.  This is because of the army of GMs they utilize.  How better to maximize your GM resource then to have them run events?

   Doubt I'd ever get one, but it'd be cool if I did. I think GMs should just observe people. People who deserve items should find them, or something... Not that I deserve them, just... Cocky people don't need anything else to boast about, ya know... (Sorry, I know it's not a valid point, or a viable option.)

The more you farm, the more you lose out.

   Again, something I never understood. Being more powerful does not necessarily equal having more fun...

Hero’s Journey LOTTO Syndicate.

This could be a great idea, but I for one don’t like gambling.  It promotes some very poor assumptions when you participate in things like this.  I know we can put in some moderation tools to help keep this from being an addiction, but we may have to be very careful.  I don’t know about Internet laws and gambling (even if you are gambling for fake money).  Also I don’t know how much gambling will be accepting when we don’t have an age limit on who plays our game.  How will the game appear to parents where we have gambling for all ages including your 12 year old?  Lets get them addicted to gambling before they hit the real age to do it for real money.  Now again I say this could be a great idea, just has a lot of things that could cause big trouble.

   Ok, I've got to call you on this one. I happen to like gambling in games, and I don't see how it could be an issue. I gamble in offline games all the time, and they don't seem to have a problem with it. The lotto was ok in Suikoden 3, but they messed it up for 4... I don't remember if it was even in 5. I know it's different in offline games, but... Don't understand why. Most mini-games are some form of gambling or another.

   I want to set up a 3 Card Monty stand thing in the street and take people's money... Unrelated, but it'd totally rule nonetheless...

Dueling Arenas – for CASH!

This is a match of skill rather than mostly chance, so I am all for this kind of challenge.  It doesn’t REQUIRE any one to participate, and all parties should know their own skill before laying down collateral as support for their skill claims.  This might be considered gambling, but if you truly know your stuff it can more closely be compared to retail IRL.  The buyer buys things that he knows he can resell later on.  In some extremely rare cases he is stuck with his produce, which he can’t sell.  Hence nothing in life is truly a 100% win situation, but a Duelist if he truly knows his trade can be a very high percentage of coming out on top.

   If you made it enough of a social scene, I might bet on some people, but I wouldn't participate in the fights.

    I think there should be various races for people to bet on, as welll. You know, like frog races, crab races, tortoise races, and rat races. It's be awesome, I guess...

Make death hurt…

This is a tough balance, because death is a good way to make the challenge of the game feel more real to the person, but it can also be to steep and cause people to quite because of the frustration.  So it’s a necessary evil, but balance is a issue here.

   Aw, man... I die alot, and I'm always poor...

Barbershop Feature

Great idea again, again Simu has utilized this in the past with great response.

   Corn rows, baby! Hehe...

The Elanthian Journal Of Hero's

Also utilized in the past, not sure on the response from gamers about this though.  And they didn’t use it as ranking system, just news as to what is going on in the world.

   That'd be kind of cool, I guess. Even if it wasn't a ranking system, I'd never make it in, though...

GM Event Items

This is a huge staple for Simu in its past games.  This is because of the army of GMs they utilize.  How better to maximize your GM resource then to have them run events?

   Doubt I'd ever get one, but it'd be cool if I did. I think GMs should just observe people. People who deserve items should find them, or something... Not that I deserve them, just... Cocky people don't need anything else to boast about, ya know... (Sorry, I know it's not a valid point, or a viable option.)

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   I never do well in games. I generally have about 1/4 as much cash as other people my own level, and am half as well equipt. I think maybe I just suck...  Anyway, I'd like to be a part of this game's community, but... Well, I just want to be a contributing part, or something, instead of just one of the nameless faces... Anyway, good luck with things...

This is an interesting thread and I'm sorry it seems to have died off.  One thought that I had though.

Informants.   Develop a relationship with certain NPCs that can supply you with leads on items, adventures, dungeons, incursions, or anything you can think of.  Sometimes they'll have something for you, many times they won't.  The more you deal with a particular NPC (or that NPC's faction), the better the leads will be (and costlier).  The informant might even offer multiple leads, fair for a small "donation" up to really juicy for a hefty fee (pool a group or guild's resources).

This could enhance RP and flavor as well as siphon off some coin from the more well-to-do adventurers.  Just make them not so easy to find and move around a bit too.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what finally comes out, and even more, how it evolves afterwards.  I haven't played a Simu game in.... quite a few years (since GEnie)... but they were lots of fun.  

NR

  I have a few simple ideas.  Alot of tradeskills.Mining, lumberjacking etc.  Breakable weapons armor. Need of raw resources to repair.  Very few equipment drops, so you have to get involved in the player based economy by trading ex. raw resources for a finished product from a player smith for example.  In order to rapir the so called uber items you would need higher quality raw materials like gold silver etc. in addition to iron or steel.