Originally posted by belladauna

 

Originally posted by Wrymstrum

Honestly I'm pretty skeptical about including villains.  I think making COV was a big mistake, and if they would have focused on COH they could have a much better product.  CoV was basically a copy of COH with an evil theme.  Such a waste of resources. 

 

If an MMO has just one faction (i.e. heroes) then the developers have a lot more freedom to develop great pve content for that faction. 

 

But I suppose there could be creative ways to do villains that wouldn't detract from the pve content.  Maybe it would be something where after your hero hits the level cap you can unlock a villain for PVP and some specific villain content, but the main game would be hero PVE content.

 

I have to strongly disagree with your first sentiment that it was a mistake. COV was my first MMO, and I wouldn't have really cared to play them period if it wasn't for that game. I don't want to play a Hero, I have no interest in that. The fact you COULD play the bad guy was the atttraction to me. So, waste of resources I don't think so, I think they tapped into a well of new players because of it.

I will still play Champions online, but I will do it begrudgingly, as I would much rather play the dark side.

Agreed, although I agree and disagree with both sides of the argument to some extent. He's kind of right in the fact that if they built upon CoH rather than create the CoV expansion they could have really made some interesting progression. It would certainly build upon the PvE... but it would continue to lack PvP, a needed source for the game and a near constant complaint.

For PvP to honestly work there needs to at least be two factions. A faction of heroes and a faction of villians makes it perfect. Although in my opinion the PvP in that game was a complete failure, it would have been even worse if they didn't try to begin with.

Not only was it good for the PvP aspect, but it was good for, generally, just wanting to play a villain, and it did make sense for the game's first real expansion. Heroes need villians. Agreeing with what Bella said, in my opinion it was probably the best choice to go with CoV rather than simply expand upon CoH. It added great versatility to the game and, although I rarely played villains, it made the game a lot more fun.

What would really be neat in this game is if they actually had a world completely focused on the players if you catch my drift... what I mean is, the PvE is intertwined with the PvP. Like say, for example, your arch-nemesis described in this game is actually another player. The story would be combined within the two players battling one another... although I know not many people would prefer that, I just think that would be pretty neat in my book. Or perhaps if you played the game with friends than you could have a supergroup from the beginning and a story revolving around them... and of a super villain team trying to thwart their every action. But like I said, a good amount of people don't want to be involved in PvP of any sort so I could never see this working. That would be really cool, though

One thing that I do think everyone would agree on is more unique PvE stories. If we can make our characters look and act any way we can possibly imagine, can't we choose their stories? Say when creating your character, you get to choose a super-hero alliance to be guided over. You would recieve your missions from that certain group to the end and follow their specific story. It would make creating alts much less of a burden and more fun, and the game would feel much less tiresome... the only thing bad about this is much more work for the developers, and probably more work than fair to expect.

EDIT: to what I said earlier, for the issue of people prefering PvE or PvEvP, it would be cool in character creation that you could choose which sort of story you'd want and play one or the other. But that brings in the same problem that it would be extremely bothersome to create that much.

Originally posted by redcap036

Originally posted by sepher

I'm probably behind in any news regarding the ability to play villains at launch, but last I heard it sounded sorta cemented that there'd be Hero only gameplay with the only PvP being some arena deal or somesuch.

There's a mentioning of Villain gameplay in a new 1up preview/interview from a few days ago though: http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3167585&p=4

The discourse dovetails naturally into City of Villains and whether Champions will let you play the bad guy right out of the box. Emmert responds with a "maybe," though the duo seems to think they're onto something special. "[In COH/COV], heroes were always more popular than villains," says Lewis, "but the hero and villain gameplay was pretty much the same. We think the villains' content was a lot better, and we found a lot of people playing villains simply because it was a new and better experience. But it's something we're thinking about in Champions: Is the gameplay experience the same for a hero and a villain? But that's part of our top-secret plan we're not talking about."

I sure hope they DO allow villains at launch, especially if they want to be seen as a company that's learned from some of City of Heroes shortcomings.

It wouldn't hurt if they evolved their ideas about PvP inclusion as well. Maybe they will  after the three heavyweights of PvP hit this year; AoC's border kingdoms, WAR's RvR, and if nothing else, WoW's world PvP.

I'd be satisfied with just the ability to play a villain though.

 

Maybe it won't be a push button A to be a Hero or press B to be a Villain, hopefully they might just make it that the player determine thru his actions, costume and style of name what they want to become and maybe moral's.

That would be pretty neat, but extensive. That's more for a single person RPG at this point... I don't think games at this point are ready for that much of a step.

Originally posted by Wrymstrum

Originally posted by yggdrasill00

Originally posted by Wrymstrum

 

Originally posted by badavatar 

I see where you are coming from, I just think that like I said previously, it's up to the dev studio to properly institute these ideas without taking away from the game's overall experience.

on the issue of making a big deal out of which side you are playing, well, sorry, for some of us, it is a big deal, especially in a game environment like this one built on a base of classic good vs. evil as if in a comic. there are those of us who enjoy the evil persona and dark storytelling associated with villains. aside from that, there are those who like to use their villainous avatar as an extension of their less publicly acceptable self. hey, sometimes I just want a good excuse to be an asshole. it's bad form to be a jerk in an atmosphere where everyone playing is a 'good guy'(which is most games) and those of us who know the meaning of personal restraint aren't going to make an ass of themselves unless the environment we are playing in lends to it. people get to be a hero and save the day in most games that hit the market. many of us appreciate the chance to occasionally do something different.  it's not a matter of machismo, or degrading the way others like to play, it's that some of us could use a place to be selfish, indulgent, unyielding and powerful without actually going to jail.

 

I don't think it's possible to make a game for symmetric factions without seriously hampering content and story development.  You can do certain things to help, but it's always a trade off. 

 

I know playing the evil side is a big deal to some people, but having a lot of good content is a huge issue for everyone.  I think making villains primarily PVP characters is a good compromise.  You still get to play as villains and the PVE content isn't being split in half or turned into generic mush.  I think the vast majority of villain inclined players would accept this as long as the villains were still highly customizable, allowed character development paths such as getting new powers and upgrading others, and there were lots of varried activities for villains rather than just hanging out in one zone looking for heroes to assault. 

 

 

I'd prefer if my villain could enjoy doing PvE content without worrying about PvP interference. Making villains where they are mostly PvP and stuck in zones where there is always PvP to worry about would suck IMO.

 

Well playing an MMO with a serious lack of content because everything is being split 50/50 between two factions would suck IMO.

Because giving one alot of content and the other minimal content is so much better, last time I checked WoW had two factions and it seems to be doing damn good :P

Originally posted by yggdrasill00

Originally posted by Wrymstrum

Originally posted by yggdrasill00

Originally posted by Wrymstrum

 

Originally posted by badavatar 

I see where you are coming from, I just think that like I said previously, it's up to the dev studio to properly institute these ideas without taking away from the game's overall experience.

on the issue of making a big deal out of which side you are playing, well, sorry, for some of us, it is a big deal, especially in a game environment like this one built on a base of classic good vs. evil as if in a comic. there are those of us who enjoy the evil persona and dark storytelling associated with villains. aside from that, there are those who like to use their villainous avatar as an extension of their less publicly acceptable self. hey, sometimes I just want a good excuse to be an asshole. it's bad form to be a jerk in an atmosphere where everyone playing is a 'good guy'(which is most games) and those of us who know the meaning of personal restraint aren't going to make an ass of themselves unless the environment we are playing in lends to it. people get to be a hero and save the day in most games that hit the market. many of us appreciate the chance to occasionally do something different.  it's not a matter of machismo, or degrading the way others like to play, it's that some of us could use a place to be selfish, indulgent, unyielding and powerful without actually going to jail.

 

I don't think it's possible to make a game for symmetric factions without seriously hampering content and story development.  You can do certain things to help, but it's always a trade off. 

 

I know playing the evil side is a big deal to some people, but having a lot of good content is a huge issue for everyone.  I think making villains primarily PVP characters is a good compromise.  You still get to play as villains and the PVE content isn't being split in half or turned into generic mush.  I think the vast majority of villain inclined players would accept this as long as the villains were still highly customizable, allowed character development paths such as getting new powers and upgrading others, and there were lots of varried activities for villains rather than just hanging out in one zone looking for heroes to assault. 

 

 

I'd prefer if my villain could enjoy doing PvE content without worrying about PvP interference. Making villains where they are mostly PvP and stuck in zones where there is always PvP to worry about would suck IMO.

 

Well playing an MMO with a serious lack of content because everything is being split 50/50 between two factions would suck IMO.

 

Because giving one alot of content and the other minimal content is so much better, last time I checked WoW had two factions and it seems to be doing damn good :P

Yes, it is better.  You're free to make a villain to PVP with instantly.  No grinding menial tasks to level them up.  It'd kind of similar to how Guild Wars operates.  They don't need extensive PVE content.  Or you can play a hero in a more tradiitional manner, doing pve content and eventually PVP as well. 

Yes, WOW has been successful, but that doesn't mean that you can/should copy everything they did.  The vast majority of PVE content isn't faction specific, so WOW isn't really affected by the content drain in a direct way.  I don't think that would work in a superhero game, so really you can't copy them exactly. 

Giving an isntant "cap leveled" villain just to pvp with is utterly useless; best if they didn't even have villians!

I agree with what people were speaking of in the first few pages. I think having both heroes and villains would have to be the case; it is a superhero genre, after all, and most people would expect to be able to be good or evil.

I for one, would appreciate villains being playable in CO, but, not the way City of Villains implemented it. Having a complete copy of game play (with a major FRONT END difference) is silly.

It's just like making another hero again, because you're still doing the same thing either way!

Sure, the game play would have to remain similar because that's what the game pretty much is, but a few differences to how things interact would be much more fun.

Maybe, as a villain, you'd have to "lurk in the shadows", avoiding the city's main area or be chased down by police. Even things like street cleaning could be different; other than stopping people from ruining the city, why not help them? Help a bank robbery, or fend off police whilst your fellow npc villains get what they need ~ then beat them down and take it from them.. =P

But regardless, CO will definitely be something I'll be replacing (to an extent) City of Heroes / Villains with (and about time!!).

I've been reading all the rants and raves about playing heroes and villians and wondered why can't there be both?  Using WoW as a comparison, it has Horde and Alliance.  On a PVP server they can interact by killing each other if they wanted.  Why not the same for CO?  Have both the villians and the heroes at the same time.  This will give the players a choice to be good or evil AND interact with each other.  

Mob drops for each side could be incorporated this way too.  Do you sell that item the boss dropped for lots of in-game currency or do you just sell / delete it so the villian / hero can't use it against you in PVP?

Just some thoughts. 

Originally posted by Deathliche

Using WoW as a comparison, it has Horde and Alliance.  On a PVP server they can interact by killing each other if they wanted.  Why not the same for CO?

Because it's not the same thing.   There's more significant differences between heroes and villains than horde and alliance. 

I disagree with your statement of it's not the same thing...

Both sides can have use of the same character creater, both sides can choose from the same powers, and both sides can start in their own areas to prevent higher lvls character from just ganking low lvl characters just for the heck of it.  Both sides can have their own missions ("quests") that are relevant to their affiliation.

SO, imo, it can be similiar to WoW and CAN be implemented with alittle work.  Will it be easy?  Probably not, but anything that has worth isn't easy.  I believe going along those lines would make for fun PVPing.  My character could have a player character nemesis on the same server that always seems to gank me at the wrong times, and vice versa. 

I not saying to make it exactly like WoW either.  Use what is known to work to your advantage, if you can, and progress from there.

My question, I guess, is why can't they be the same?    

Originally posted by Deathliche

I disagree with your statement of it's not the same thing...

Both sides can have use of the same character creater, both sides can choose from the same powers, and both sides can start in their own areas to prevent higher lvls character from just ganking low lvl characters just for the heck of it.  Both sides can have their own missions ("quests") that are relevant to their affiliation.

SO, imo, it can be similiar to WoW and CAN be implemented with alittle work.  Will it be easy?  Probably not, but anything that has worth isn't easy.  I believe going along those lines would make for fun PVPing.  My character could have a player character nemesis on the same server that always seems to gank me at the wrong times, and vice versa. 

I not saying to make it exactly like WoW either.  Use what is known to work to your advantage, if you can, and progress from there.

My question, I guess, is why can't they be the same?    

Because the vast majority of the PVE content is exactly the same for the horde and the alliance.  That doesn't work in a superhero game except in limited circumstances. 

You seem to be pretty vague as to why it won't work in a Super Hero MMORPG.  I believe it can be done.

Originally posted by Deathliche

You seem to be pretty vague as to why it won't work in a Super Hero MMORPG.  I believe it can be done.

I didn't say it wouldn't work at all, I just said that it wouldn't work like it does in WOW.  And I wasn't vague. 

With the exception of a few low level instances, all of the main content in WOW is the same for the horde and the alliance.  Blizzard doesn't create raids for the horde and separate raids for the Alliance.  You could do heroes and villains in an MMO, but because the nature of the factions is much more different than in games like WOW you'd have to much more separate content for those factions.  So you have to make sacrifices in order to do heroes and villains that you don't have to do for horde and alliance in WOW. 

Also it's just easier to do content for heroes.  Heroes are reactive.  The bag guy is out there, you go foil his plot and kick his butt.  Fairly simple to do.  It's much harder to do villain c