Profile: SoSilencer
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• • Darkfall's Beta NDA

  • Originally posted by Zayne3145
    

    You can't even say you're in the Beta? That seems strange since people were allowed to state their inclusion in Beta for other games, unless I missed something?

    I know NDA's are draconian by their very nature - but to be reprimanded for even stating that you're in a Beta without actually disclosing any details about the game ... sounds a bit of an overreaction if I'm brutally honest.

     

    This has been standard practice for all MMO betas that I can think of.

  • Posted: 11/17/08 7:32 AM
    Darkfall
• • Does this game use instancing?

  • Originally posted by Sharajat

    What I think people don't see is the vast amounts of advantages instances can give.  LotRO really took them somewhere different, turning them into a semi-cinematic adventure that you have to overcome.  WoW, despite the hatred, created some very tuned, interesting, difficult encounters (and despite the whining from people so anti-social they couldn't find 4 others who could stomach them, nevermind 24 or 39, they were difficult).  Would Asheron's Call been a worse game if it had those TOO?  

    Replacing content with instances isn't something I agree with, but if both types of content are there, what's the big deal?

     

    The problem is that you can't have everything. Games are developed in the real world using real time and real money. Every feature or bit of content that you do add means that you are not going to add some other feature or bit of content due to a lack of resources. This leads us to the situation we are in today...

    You can make an MMO that uses a lot of instances and tries to focus a lot on storyline, quests and specific game content or you can make an MMO that is more open and free and is more of a sandbox environment.

    Recently a lot of MMO games have been trying the first option and recently a lot of MMO games have been failing because of it. People are quickly blowing through the carefully crafted storyline quests and then realizing that their is either no end-game content or that the end-game content doesn't work because the developers chose to take the easy route of using instances instead of putting resources into making a game world and rule set that "works" in different situations and with the randomness of other players.

    Other MMO games, such as Asherons Call 1 or Eve Online go for the sandbox approach. They use an open and free world where they focus on a game world and rule set that (for the most part) works for everyone in all situations. The storyline and quests usually aren't as good because the content is more generalized but because the world "works" the players become much more involved in the game and stay for years and years. In the case of Asherons Call 1 they even had monthly updates to progress the storyline and maintain the interest of everyone and it worked very well.

    In the end, instances are something of a short cut. It is the cheap and easy route for developers. It can make a great game but the game ends up not having the same long-lasting appeal that a non-instanced sandbox style game has.

  • Posted: 11/07/08 11:29 AM
    Aion
• • Does this game use instancing?

  • Originally posted by Sharajat
    
    

    "Is a large, varied game world with thousands of things to see and do a good thing?"

    If it is a good thing, then you are arguing against yourself.  The larger the game world, see, the less you are forced to interact with others.  The less you get a feeling of massive, since 5,000 people online in a game world that is 400 square miles is a lot less forced interaction than 5,000 people online in 40 square miles. 

    I disagree. It isn't about FORCING interaction it's about the POSSIBILITY of it. If you have an instance it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to interact with other players because you are in a totally seperate world that nobody else has access to.

    For example...

    I used to play Asherons Call 1. For those not familiar this was an EQ1 era game and was a HUGE open world with no zones. Although the game had portals for quick travel between towns you COULD run anywhere if you wanted to.

    I like to explore so I would often run between towns or to distant areas on the map just to see what was there. Some areas were populated with a lot of cities fairly close together and running around in these areas meant a decent amount of players to encounter. Other more difficult areas near the far ends of the map were nearly empty. Sometimes you could run for an hour and not see anyone.

    You imply that this can make a world feel empty and less massive but in my opinion it makes it feel full and more massive. There are so many more places to visit and explore, places that not everybody knows about. You can go visit a place that only a few players have ever seen and it makes the world feel so big when compared to a small world game where everyone has been everywhere and knows about everything. Or when you go to a popular town and see hundreds of players... in a big open world it makes it feel like there are tons of players in the world because there are so many people just in this one town yet there are so many other towns and so many other places where other people are. In a small game world you know that the town is full simply because there is nowhere else to go.
     

     

  • Posted: 11/07/08 9:09 AM
    Aion
• • Does this game use instancing?

  • Originally posted by Sharajat 

    At the end of the day, instances simply allow certain things to happen.  Storming an enemy fortress that's been completely decimated, has 5 groups sitting camping various spawns, and that you have to stand in line with to get to kill a boss is not epic.  Having McGuild the 400 man wonder team call up 50 McGuildies to down content meant for 10 people because they're too goddamn stupid to know what the hell they're doing is not 'massive and intense.'  It's just frikkin stupid. Remember the goddamn dragon kills?  150 people or so zerging a dragon, and it would fail because "Eh, we need 200 or so to down that dragon."  
    
    That's good to know.  Nice to know it takes real strategy.  Die, run back, die, run back, die, run back.  Every single game has had to put something around its bosses  to get away from that (Lineage puts them in a gate... because if you don't call it an instance, and pretend really hard it isn't an instance, maybe it won't be an instance). 

     

    Instances don't allow anything more than a properly designed open game world does. If you are running around and stumble upon a fortress that has been decimated by another group of players I think that this is good. It makes the world feel alive. Other players have done something interesting and unexpected and this gives you a choice about what you will do. Do you go into this fortress and see what has happened and what is going on or do you continue on your way and go somewhere else?

    If you enter this fortress and it is being camped is this a problem to be solved by instancing? No, it isn't. First, if you instance this fortress than it will always be ready and waiting to be attacked. You will never come across something that has already happened or is in the process of happening. It's like the entire world is designed to be ready for YOU and this feels artificial and unimmersive. Besides, instancing the fortress wouldn't really solve the problem: not enough places for players to go and not enough things for them to do. If you design the game well than people don't need or want to camp this fortress because they want to go do other things as well.

    And if people want to gather in groups of 50 to make something easy, why not? If you fail a raid beacuse you only have 150 players and not 200 why is this necessarily bad?

    One of the great things about LIneage 2 was running around or hunting either alone or in a small group and seeing a huge group of players run by towards a raid area. You can stay where you are or go with them and see what was going on. Most players enjoyed joining the group to get involved with the action. It usually resulted in a disaster but it was fun anyways. And no, a closed gate doesn't mean it's an instance. It's still a single part of one big open world, it just happens to get closed off for a period of time because of the actions of other players. They don't disappear to some magical area that is there specifically for them, they are still in the same game world as you, the same cave that you've been in.

    I wish to explain more but unfortunately a more important issue has come up and I have to go. I will try to come back ASAP...

  • Posted: 11/07/08 9:04 AM
    Aion
• • Does this game use instancing?

  • Originally posted by Sharajat
    

    Originally posted by vladww
    

    Originally posted by Sharajat
    

    Does everyone remember what a huge step forward instancing was when it was introduced?  

    There are just some places that need to be instanced.

    
     

    Does everyone remember what a huge step backward instancing was when it was

    introduced?

    There are just no places that need to be instanced.

     

    Corrected.

    I honestly sometimes wonder if these boards are full of griefers who are angry that devs don't like having them in their game.

    Sometimes I know that's the case.  This is one of the latter times...

     

    I'm going to have to jump in here and step to his defense. Every MMO player I know hates instances. Instances are the exact opposite of what an MMO game is supposed to be.

    MMO games are supposed to be massively multiplayer. The entire point of them is to allow thousands of players to interact with each other. Instances seperate the players from each other and this is counter to the entire idea behind an MMO game.

    With no disrespect intended, it sounds more like you are some sort of extreme carebear who is upset because devs aren't making all games instanced and allowing you to safely play only with your closest friends without the risk of having to interact with other players. This interaction is what people like about MMO games and if it doesn't suit you than perhaps you should consider some other style of gaming that is more controlled and predictable.

    
    
  • Posted: 11/06/08 9:23 AM
    Aion