SOE in 2010
MMORPG.com's Garrett Fuller looks at the year ahead for Sony Online Entertainment with a focus on their upcoming titles, The Agency and DC Universe Online.
Editorial By Garrett Fuller on December 29, 2009
Sony Online Entertainment had a comeback year in 2009. The company has kept updates on its top games and launched Free Realms for the younger crowd. However, games that had been announced like The Agency and DC Universe told two different stories. Below let us take a look at what 2010 is going to look like for SOE, the company that gave us EverQuest and Star Wars Galaxies.
DC Universe is a game we got to see a lot of in 2009. From a playable demo at NY Comicon in February to a studio tour in September at the Austin Studio, DC Universe seems to be coming along nicely. The game has very fast paced action and could actually be the first real MMO to make the leap onto consoles. SOE has been very happy about showing off DC Universe and rightfully so, the game has some top comic guys on the team like Jim Lee and Marv Wolfman to create the story and mood as well as having the studio in Austin constantly working on updates and improvements. There are two questions that remain for the game: Will it launch in 2010? Also, how will the game do in an already super hero heavy MMO market with Champions and City of Heroes?
advertisement DC Universe seems to have all the pieces in place to launch in 2010, but SOE may be really stepping up on the polish of this game. The demos we saw last year were fast paced and looked to move MMOs into a more console feeling. That is the other trick with this title, getting it ready and adaptable for the PS3. If SOE can pull that off then we may see a new batch of players entering into the MMO market. We expect to see big showings from DC Universe at E3, San Diego Comicon, and NY Comicon this year which should play up to the launch date at the end of 2010. Still, there is no way to tell if the game will be ready by then.
The question of how well DC Universe will do in the super hero market is difficult to tell. While players in Champions Online and City of Heroes may not be so quick to give up their already maximum level super heroes, DC Universe does offer the chance for them to fight the Joker and Lex Luther. Also teaming up with Batman, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman does sound kind of cool. The other great thing about DC Universe is that you can play as a villain as well. We have not heard too much about the PvP system in the game, but if the pacing from the demos is any indicator, we could see very fast paced battles in PvP combat coming with DC Universe. It does seem like SOE is taking their time with the game. Keep in mind that Marvel is on the horizon as well, but we have yet to see anything on that from other than rumors and speculation. For now, it looks like DC Universe will be the first super hero MMO out of the gate with a major IP behind it.
SOE's other game that has been in the works for a while is The Agency. The Agency has a very different story behind it for 2009. We first saw a demo of the game back in 2008 in NY at an SOE event. The game looked very clean and exciting. Ideas like getting text messages on your cell phone when your spy car was ready got the press really excited. Yet in 2009, The Agency went underground. We had not heard much about the game at all until a demo showed up at E3. After that, lead Designer Matt Wilson left the project to open another studio. SOE confirmed that The Agency development was not impacted by this and the game was still in the works. Overall, we hope to see more of The Agency in 2010 as the spy genre does have a place in MMOs. We will just have to wait and see.
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SOE continues to work on other projects and has hinted at some unannounced MMOs being made, one for Facebook which John Smedley mentioned at his AGDC keynote. The other has been shrouded in rumor and speculation. The rumors of a Star Wars: Clone Wars MMO for kids on the heels of Free Realms continues to haunt the intranets. Again we will just have to wait and see. Overall, SOE is poised to make some big announcements in 2010.
Unfortunately given their track record SOE can only be considered an 'average' MMO developer at best. They have a fairly long history of poor launches, poor development, and even poorer customer service. I'm excited by DCO but I've been burned by SOE too many times to give them another chance. I suppose it's the whole fool me once prinicple. Also, every time I see John Smedley's name mentioned with anything I'm reminded of why this company is, and will continue to be average at best. Between he and Hayden Blackman it suprises me that Sony hasn't axed their MMO division.
I agree completely. Although, whenever I see Smedly's name I constantly think about some money grubbing short leprecon constantly smirking as he takes innocent people's money and runs away with it. Just a visual I guess, but it hasn't allowed me to return (or give another chance to) any other game SOE has touched in a LONG LONG time :(.
The MMO genre really needs SOE to step up their efforts in making a good mmo but as long as Smedley is at the helm people will always continue to think the worst. Despitr that, I'm looking forward to seeing how good DCUO and The Agency will be.
SOE has become synonymous with the word fail.
Who's Lex Luther?
What a freaking worthless puff piece.
SOE is the "premier" gaming company with an unmatched talent for turning gold into lead.
Right now SOE has a bunch of games so bad/mediocre/underpopulated that they can not survive on their own, that they need "Station Pass" scam to survive. SOE Station Pass is like one of those crappy all-you-can-eat buffet resturants where you can have all the bad/mediocre/filler food you want for a low price, but who wants it?
SOE has ruined about every game it has ever run through mismanagement and "Smedology": soak your customers for every dollar you can, short term, because there is no long term.
Any game Smed puts out, will be run into the ground. That is what they've done so far.
To expect anything different out of Smed is at best naive` and worst idiotic, which is EXACTLY what SOE is looking for in its customers.
P.S. After SOE starts charging a sub fee for Free Realms are they going to change the name? Used-to-be-free Realms? The-first-taste-is-free Realms? SOE-working-as-intended Realms?
Those are not real MMO, you will play them for 2 months max, then you will move on.
We need EQ3 done properly, that IP is a total waste at the moment, it needs a title that makes it justice.
I agree completely. Although, whenever I see Smedly's name I constantly think about some money grubbing short leprecon constantly smirking as he takes innocent people's money and runs away with it. Just a visual I guess, but it hasn't allowed me to return (or give another chance to) any other game SOE has touched in a LONG LONG time :(.
Also agree, i would add that as soon as i saw the bit where they were looking to launch these games on the PS3, i just thought, this is the time to walk away and forget SOE even exist...
DCU interest me but what I hope to see in 2010 is a mention about EQ Next which was hinted at last year.
I think he reformed the church of Superman in the 15th Century.
That said, it kinda bugs me to see all of these new Sony games in development while other Sony games with huge potential have been all but abandoned by Sony and left to die.
I, personally, would love to get into Vanguard but Sony's disinterest in the game really prevents me from joining. Plus, it really hurts the company's reputation as far as I'm concerned. If they abandon games and let them languish, what's to say they won't do the same to me?
Those are not real MMO, you will play them for 2 months max, then you will move on.
We need EQ3 done properly, that IP is a total waste at the moment, it needs a title that makes it justice.
Yeah unfortunately The Agency is turning into a wash and I'm not hoping for much more with DCUO. EQ2, just imho, was and is still a wash. Get back to what they did right which was EQ for a time, get someone with a long term goal of keeping us happy and paying in charge and maybe SOE can come back, but not this year and not since the pathetic excuse for a FPSMMO Planetside launched has SOE had the right to call itself premiere at anything except making us all feel like fools.
I still hope for SOE because I don't think anyone else will be able to do an EQesque game justice, or the people who could want to, yeah I'm looking at you there Bliz. But as time goes on and nothing changes it's not looking too good. Not to mention moving an MMO to the PS3 causes more trouble for the developers and the tech isn't there this generation to pull it off on both platforms, PC, Mac, etc. and consoles. Just more money and time wasted til the the next gen.
Are you serious? Have you never watched any Superman movie or TV series? Lex Luther is one of Superman's arch nemesis's (nemesi?)
Nothing really needs to be added by me as the above posters have echoed my sentiment about SoE exactly.
As long as Smedley is the faceman at SoE I will never touch one of their games. He is short sighted when it comes to this genre and he is not at all shy about the fact that it's all about the money, rather than developing something profitable long term.
SOE + Smed = no money from me. Even if they got rid of Smed, I would have to watch SoE for awhile to see if the culture changed before I would consider giving them another shot.
I still play eq2, its the only game that I still somewhat like that SOE makes. It has its problems yes but it is the only viable game they have.
The rest are in the process of dying.
last time i checked EQ2 was in that category too, i think one of the main reasons SOE is trying to develope more games is the fact that their current catalogue of games is looking in dire need player numbers, once the free activations run dry on EQ2, i think the numbers will crumble again, if they havent already. At the moment, SOE has a lot of 'old' games, so many of which appear to be on 'life support' if DCU or the Agency, dont provide a degree of profitability, i half expect the MMO arm of Sony to actually fold.
Same for me ...
Everquest was great until they ruined it with pop and Ldon ....
Vanguard was great until they ruined it when they took over SIGIL ...
I will not say Never Again SOE .... but poor chance they catch me back ...
What exactly was a comeback year for soe in 2009?
The matrix online closed down.
Free realms launched to 5 million users trying the game, but the game doesn't even have 1 full server. Things are going so poorly that soe had to change the revenue model within a few months of the game releasing.
Still no version of Free Realms for the PS3, which is supposed to be their new focus.
7 of the 9 mmos on station pass did not see an expansion pack and most likely will never see an expansion.
DCU online was pushed back
The Agency was pushed back.
The leadership of their Seattle office left.
More loot card and cash shop antics driving more customers away this year.
There has been employee turnover in almost every major leadership role for each of their projects.
An overall percentage layoff of their workforce in addition to some teams being downsized beyond that.
I am sorry, but what exactly are the details of this comeback they had?
Will 2010 be any different?
DCU will be lucky to be ready for release by Q4 of 2010 and even then it needs to be an unquestionable success.
The agency is in big trouble despite what soe says. For a game this far along in development to be this quiet raises some questions. To see the leadership of the project walk out when they should be ramping up for release makes things seem even worse.
I agree completely. Although, whenever I see Smedly's name I constantly think about some money grubbing short leprecon constantly smirking as he takes innocent people's money and runs away with it. Just a visual I guess, but it hasn't allowed me to return (or give another chance to) any other game SOE has touched in a LONG LONG time :(.
i have to agre ,smed push too far when it come to save money hes like like that ,hell he did that in everquest (using freeware etc)sony will have to tell him to spend a bit more money if they dont he ll cut budjet when in fact those area need more budget
hes a good dude and all but when soe say to him it has to cost less!smed go too far !
I agree with all of that, plus the bit missed out to the effect that Vanguard's future development work was totally cancelled.
I don't personally hate SOE, but clearly a lot of people do and that won't change all the while Smedley is in charge. I do dislike SOE's business methods, and I do distrust them in general and Smedley in particular, but hatred isn't a term I'd use in the context of computer gaming which is a hobby for me and therefore not to be taken too seriously.
All that said, EQ2 remains an outstanding MMO for the right type of player, with the right type of rig, and no other MMO can match it in terms of features like player housing, collection quests, the broker and so on. If you're a "dumbed down raider" type player on a low spec rig then that other game will be the one for you, but for a lot of other players EQ2 would fit the bill very well and more should try it in my opinion.
A lot of these issues like the evil things that SOE have done tend to be way over-stated by the vocal minority. For example, if everyone whose nose was put out of joint by the SWG:NGE saga had actually been actively playing that game then SOE wouldn't have needed to do the NGE in the first place! Just like if everyone who claims AC was the best MMO ever had been actively playing it then it wouldn't even at its peak have been the least successful of the mainstream MMOs of its generation by a long way.
The big question for all MMO developers in 2010 remains the same as it was in 2009 - how to wean a couple of million players off that other game. No-one has found the answer yet, and I doubt SOE will do so either. I always thought the masses would move on from the other game to play more MMOs, but perhaps they simply aren't mobile in that sense and will always be tied to the one game until such time as they move on from the genre entirely, or possibly Blizzard lauunch another MMO themselves.
Sorry folks but you must be either stupid or outright hateful to STILL regard SOE as especially bad, given how many mediocre, failed, closed and otherwise bad MMOs we had seen in the last 2 years. No chance. SWG was great until NGE, EQ2 was always great, Free Realms was great for the right audience. So I know they are CAPABLE of doing a good MMO. Which is more than I can say about Funcom or Crpytic!
Seriously, guys, get a damn grip and get the heck over it already. There is nothing worse than an ex wife bitching about the bad character of the ex husband 10 years after the divorce as if was yesterday. No one has sympathy with that!
I don't know any more detail about The Agency or DCU as anyone, but from what I know I think they can be cool, and I am looking forward to them. DCU seems a lot better than CO (which isn't so hard truth be told), and Agency looks like something fresh and casually entertaining. I am surely going to try them out.
I am someone who played SoE games faithfully from March 17th 1999 until recently.
I gave them chance after chance after chance to redeem themselves. Always being forgiving and continuing to subscribe.
Always full of hope that they will make the right decision to correct something wrong.
Almost always dissappointed in them.
As i said in another thread, SoE has a history of bringing out some damn fine games and then letting them turn to utter garbage.
Eq1 was almost unilaterally loved and adored up until planes of power and then the game fell off the deep end. Only the hardest of the hard core fans remain.
Eq2 had a rough start but developed into a great game with a loyal following and within the last couple of years the development team started streaming out expansions that would best be equated to horse droppings.
Volumes of moans and groans from their community over the introduction of item shops within established pay to play model games.
Buying vanguard and stringing the core audience along with false hopes of the viability of their game.
I could go on and on, but i will leave it with a single statement.......John Smedly is a tool.
I am someone who played SoE games faithfully from March 17th 1999 until recently.
I gave them chance after chance after chance to redeem themselves. Always being forgiving and continuing to subscribe.
Always full of hope that they will make the right decision to correct something wrong.
Almost always dissappointed in them.
As i said in another thread, SoE has a history of bringing out some damn fine games and then letting them turn to utter garbage.
Eq1 was almost unilaterally loved and adored up until planes of power and then the game fell off the deep end. Only the hardest of the hard core fans remain.
Eq2 had a rough start but developed into a great game with a loyal following and within the last couple of years the development team started streaming out expansions that would best be equated to horse droppings.
Volumes of moans and groans from their community over the introduction of item shops within established pay to play model games.
Buying vanguard and stringing the core audience along with false hopes of the viability of their game.
I could go on and on, but i will leave it with a single statement.......John Smedly is a tool.
All I know is: I played EQ2 for five years and had a blast, I played SWG 4+ years and had a blast, and my only personal gripe was the NGE. So MY logic is: stop whining over beans spilled years ago already. SOE made mistakes like ANY GODDAMN OTHER MMO company! Branding SOE as more evil/dumb is just plain out of any relations.
All I know is: I played EQ2 for five years and had a blast, I played SWG 4+ years and had a blast, and my only personal gripe was the NGE. So MY logic is: stop whining over beans spilled years ago already. SOE made mistakes like ANY GODDAMN OTHER MMO company! Branding SOE as more evil/dumb is just plain out of any relations.
i agree with you completely if EQ2 was made under the name of another developer people would be jumping all over that game. but because it has the brand of SOE on it stupid people avoid it.
EQ2 is one of the best if the not THE best MMO out right now. and hopefully when they add PVP to PVE servers it will be even better.
Um, excuse me? You aren't anyone to tell people that they need to "get over" anything. People have the right to not give their money to a company who, certainly didin't as you put it make a mistake like any other MMO company. No, Elikal, they made THE MISTAKE IN THE HISTORY OF MMO COMPANIES TO DATE. That is belief is fairly universally held.
It's perfectly fine if some people like you don't care about getting jerked around like that and will run right back like little puppies hoping the next time will be a nice pat on the head instead of a steel boot to the snout. Others, and rightly so, are well within their right to not come trotting back and you have no more ground to tell them to get over it as they have ground to call you and SOE stooge.
Making a bad game is...well, bad, sure. You can point out Funcom and Cryptic for that. But changing a game years after it has been out in a manner that thumbs its nose at its existing customer base practically states we don't want you anymore we're looking for X type gamers now.
Now, I didn't proactively come into this thread bashing SOE and really had no intention of it. That said I still maintain that I will never buy nor play another SOE product and I took issue with you telling me that I need to "get over it". There is something worse than an ex-wife still complaining after 10 years: A person who has no idea of what went on in that relationships trying to dictate/being judgmental of the emotions/reactions of those involved.
As far as SOE is concerned, I've found the company to be somewhat disappointing. I was not around for SWG's release and honestly never played the game more than a few weeks way after NGE, so that's not my issue. I just have never been impressed with any of their games.
From my experience, they ask you to pay the same monthly fees for their games as other developers do, but you get far less support -- for example, look at VG or MXO. EQ2 is zoned to death and they can't even come up with new armor models for the characters -- just reskins of the same old thing over and over. Blah.
Maybe SOE will impress me in the future, but as they stand today, other companies offer a much better product for the same price IMO.
I will always be grateful to SOE for their part of the work on original Everquest. But other than that, and in all recent history, they are a game company that deservedly has a bad rep with players.
John Smedley simply doesn't understand that if you make a quality product and treat your customers well, the financial model will work itself out. When Blizzard made WoW, I can guarantee you they had no income projections that contemplated 11 million people playing their game. They just focused on making a good game, and look what happened. By contrast, SOE makes shoddy products and then tries to come up with inventive ways to make money from them anyway. People are wise to this now and won't put up with it.
I see no turnaround for SOE so long as John Smedley is still there.
All I know is: I played EQ2 for five years and had a blast, I played SWG 4+ years and had a blast, and my only personal gripe was the NGE. So MY logic is: stop whining over beans spilled years ago already. SOE made mistakes like ANY GODDAMN OTHER MMO company! Branding SOE as more evil/dumb is just plain out of any relations.
i agree with you completely if EQ2 was made under the name of another developer people would be jumping all over that game. but because it has the brand of SOE on it stupid people avoid it.
EQ2 is one of the best if the not THE best MMO out right now. and hopefully when they add PVP to PVE servers it will be even better.
EQ2 released long before the masses hated on soe. Long before the NGE and long before many of the other instances of soe shitting on their players.
All this talk about how great soe games are is just that, talk.
EQ2 was never a great game and it has suffered with an identity crisis for years as soe has pushed the direction of the game back and forth so many times people wonder what the next expansion will do to the game. Keep in mind this game is the best effort soe has every produced on its own and it was closing servers within 12 months of release. Who recalls the advertising campaign for EQ2 of "no waiting lines"? The truth is that people would rather wait in line for hours to play another mmo instead of subscribing to EQ2 where they was zero wait to get into the game. That is just how "great" EQ2 was.
The reason more people do not play the game is because the game isn't very good and it is easy to find a better experience in other games. That doesn't mean the game isn't enjoyable to you, but to almost everyone else it isn't.
There are millions of new players in the market who have no first hand experience with soes tainted past and they still do not play eq2, despite all the claims of its awesomeness. Go look at any of the games trial areas and see people trying the game right now. If the games were so great, those people would be swelling the ranks of soe games, but they are not.
As for the rest of the soe stable:
Everquest was built by a different company and purchased by soe who then drove out the creative forces behind the game.
SWG: Seriously, how does anyone screw up this title? Even before the NGE the game was a train wreck and once again soe drove out the creative forces that made the interesting parts of the game.
Free realms boasts 5 million or more players have tried the game, but you could fit all the active players onto 1 server and still not have a full server. That is hands down the worst release in mmo history. No other game has lost that many players in such a short time frame. It is such a failure that soe has had to change the revenue model from a free to play game to a subscription based game.
Planetside, The matrix, EQ online adventure, EQ Mac, Vanguard are all dead projects that would have closed down years ago under any other company.
Even the projects they have partnered with or published are failures.
The failures of other companies do not somehow make soe a quality game maker. If the next 10 mmos released are bombs that will not in any way improve the quality of soe games. There are so many reasons soe is in the situation it is in right now. To many to name to be honest. Calling people stupid or a hater will not change that reality.
The mmo market has exploded in size and soe has drastically shrank in response to that. They are still riding the success of the 1 game they purchased 10 years ago.
SOE is just one company among a group of companies that can be counted on to deliver failure or do whatever is needed to piss off their players.
Um, excuse me? You aren't anyone to tell people that they need to "get over" anything. People have the right to not give their money to a company who, certainly didin't as you put it make a mistake like any other MMO company. No, Elikal, they made THE MISTAKE IN THE HISTORY OF MMO COMPANIES TO DATE. That is belief is fairly universally held.
It's perfectly fine if some people like you don't care about getting jerked around like that and will run right back like little puppies hoping the next time will be a nice pat on the head instead of a steel boot to the snout. Others, and rightly so, are well within their right to not come trotting back and you have no more ground to tell them to get over it as they have ground to call you and SOE stooge.
Making a bad game is...well, bad, sure. You can point out Funcom and Cryptic for that. But changing a game years after it has been out in a manner that thumbs its nose at its existing customer base practically states we don't want you anymore we're looking for X type gamers now.
Now, I didn't proactively come into this thread bashing SOE and really had no intention of it. That said I still maintain that I will never buy nor play another SOE product and I took issue with you telling me that I need to "get over it". There is something worse than an ex-wife still complaining after 10 years: A person who has no idea of what went on in that relationships trying to dictate/being judgmental of the emotions/reactions of those involved.
Sure, it is your right to keep your grudge. But spilling it over forums and trying to incite it on everyone else is not ok after all these years. At some point ppl have to keep their grudges to themselves. You can hate SOE all you live, thats fine with me, and filling every damn thread about SOE with SOE-hate after years and years is just not right.
I will base my liking of a game on the game, not on the company. If DCU and/or Agency are fun I play them if not I don't. Its not like Smedly killed my mother or what!
Sure, it is your right to keep your grudge. But spilling it over forums and trying to incite it on everyone else is not ok after all these years. At some point ppl have to keep their grudges to themselves. You can hate SOE all you live, thats fine with me, and filling every damn thread about SOE with SOE-hate after years and years is just not right.
I will base my liking of a game on the game, not on the company. If DCU and/or Agency are fun I play them if not I don't. Its not like Smedly killed my mother or what!
Odd isnt it how someone can look upon a let down in a video game as such a catastrophe in their lives. But then I guess it is how one defines a life.
Eq2 was great up until the latest expansion combined with the introduction of their item shop on a pay to play game.
The expansion was a long time coming and quite frankly dissapointing to much of their player base.
With Kunark there were grumblings about too much solo and then with this one it was too much group. The dev managers at SoE just don't have a clue on how to bring out balanced content that satisfys more than one sphere of playstyle.
Who knows what is going to happen with the Odus expac. I hope good things for them, i truly do, but i don't have any faith left in SoE to get it right.
And to whoever brought up that SoE just loves to bring out mediocre games and then look for niche ways to increase profits, right on brother.
-They charge you a steep monthly fee for extra character slots under the thin veil that you can play other soe games.
-They open a trinket and potion shop where people can either buy stupid crap that should already be available in game or potions that give you exp/aa exp bonuses for real money. Now if eq2 were a f2p game, this one would not be in argument, but it is a pay to play game. Awful.
Now i am not saying overall that eq2 is a horrible game. It isn't. There are lots of areas prior to the latest expac that are nice and others that are getting much needed attention, but the player base is seeing a trend that somewhat started with kunark and continues to grow with weak, tiny, too narrow minded expansions that just happen to be only once per year now. (which is evidence that they have cut their developmental staff numbers exponentially)
One other argument against the merits of SoE is the rather large exodus of quality staff members that fled to 38 Studios. Rats feeling the ship is a sure sign that it is sinking. If not sinking then it is stuck on a sand bar and listing heavily to starboard.
I again stand firmly pat ithat John Smedly is a tool and is directly responsible for the above negative feedback.
The attitude of the worker and the quality of the work they do is a direct reflection on those who manage them.
Sure, it is your right to keep your grudge. But spilling it over forums and trying to incite it on everyone else is not ok after all these years. At some point ppl have to keep their grudges to themselves. You can hate SOE all you live, thats fine with me, and filling every damn thread about SOE with SOE-hate after years and years is just not right.
I will base my liking of a game on the game, not on the company. If DCU and/or Agency are fun I play them if not I don't. Its not like Smedly killed my mother or what!
Odd isnt it how someone can look upon a let down in a video game as such a catastrophe in their lives. But then I guess it is how one defines a life.
Seriously old man, do you and I need to start again with the jabs. I thought we got past that in the other thread. Go have a prune juice pa-pa.
@Elikal
Like I said, I don't go around (and feel free to check my posting history if you have doubts) proactively bashing SOE. If a thread comes up and someone asks an opinion of them I give mine. No where is it mandated that after X amount of time I have to change that opinion to a neutral or positive one.
Additionally, I think it's a little off to assume that those who don't like SOE are typing this dislike in some emotion-filled, hysterical tirade where they are yelling and screaming at the monitor as they type. The majority of it as I see it expressed is in a straight forward, frank manner. It's kind of like:
"Do you want sugar in your coffee sir?"
"No thank you."
Granted, there are some that blow up in a spectacular emotional nerdrage, but for the most part I don't believe it's the case.
EQ3 or GTFO
As much as i despise smed, i would play eq3 and hope it didn't suck.
I still want a 21st century norrath without a shattered land ala eq2.
I've only ever had good experiences with SOE customer service.
I notice that quite a few people here say that it's terrible, I don't think that's fair without backing it up.
Odd isnt it how someone can look upon a let down in a video game as such a catastrophe in their lives. But then I guess it is how one defines a life.
Seriously old man, do you and I need to start again with the jabs. I thought we got past that in the other thread. Go have a prune juice pa-pa.
@Elikal
Like I said, I don't go around (and feel free to check my posting history if you have doubts) proactively bashing SOE. If a thread comes up and someone asks an opinion of them I give mine. No where is it mandated that after X amount of time I have to change that opinion to a neutral or positive one.
Additionally, I think it's a little off to assume that those who don't like SOE are typing this dislike in some emotion-filled, hysterical tirade where they are yelling and screaming at the monitor as they type. The majority of it as I see it expressed is in a straight forward, frank manner. It's kind of like:
"Do you want sugar in your coffee sir?"
"No thank you."
Granted, there are some that blow up in a spectacular emotional nerdrage, but for the most part I don't believe it's the case.
Well young pup. I guess if you took this as a personal jab at you then perhaps you are one of those it was meant for. Personally I think the point Elikal was trying to make about letting go was a pretty good one. I guess understanding how people can hold a hatred for something that happened in something as insignificant as a video game is beyond me. Disappointments happen in life but a company ruining my fun in a game isnt one of the big ones.
Odd isnt it how someone can look upon a let down in a video game as such a catastrophe in their lives. But then I guess it is how one defines a life.
Seriously old man, do you and I need to start again with the jabs. I thought we got past that in the other thread. Go have a prune juice pa-pa.
@Elikal
Like I said, I don't go around (and feel free to check my posting history if you have doubts) proactively bashing SOE. If a thread comes up and someone asks an opinion of them I give mine. No where is it mandated that after X amount of time I have to change that opinion to a neutral or positive one.
Additionally, I think it's a little off to assume that those who don't like SOE are typing this dislike in some emotion-filled, hysterical tirade where they are yelling and screaming at the monitor as they type. The majority of it as I see it expressed is in a straight forward, frank manner. It's kind of like:
"Do you want sugar in your coffee sir?"
"No thank you."
Granted, there are some that blow up in a spectacular emotional nerdrage, but for the most part I don't believe it's the case.
Well young pup. I guess if you took this as a personal jab at you then perhaps you are one of those it was meant for. Personally I think the point Elikal was trying to make about letting go was a pretty good one. I guess understanding how people can hold a hatred for something that happened in something as insignificant as a video game is beyond me. Disappointments happen in life but a company ruining my fun in a game isnt one of the big ones.
Well, pa-pa, when you quote the response with me in it instead of a previous one that would have allowed you to make that point without my name in the highlights, what am I supposed to think, lol!
I'm sure over the course of your life there have been times where you have made the decision to not buy a particular item for whatever reason. And you don't strike me as a person short on principles so I imagine you stuck with that decision. The same premise applies here is what I'm saying.
And as for disappointments about a game company not being a big one I agree. I'm just thankful at this time in my life that I don't have any other disappointments in areas that actually mean something.
What gonna happen in 2010 is SOE will have to close down Star Wars Galaxies (if SWTOR comes out in 2010, STO will be a big blow too.) They will release a buggy and poorly developed game in DCU and it won't be able to compete with City of Heroes (which has an expansion coming out in 2010 and which is a game that keeps getting better and better) and a Champions Online expansion that will get pushed out the door in late 2010 in an effort to improve subscription numbers.
Seriously old man, do you and I need to start again with the jabs. I thought we got past that in the other thread. Go have a prune juice pa-pa.
@Elikal
Like I said, I don't go around (and feel free to check my posting history if you have doubts) proactively bashing SOE. If a thread comes up and someone asks an opinion of them I give mine. No where is it mandated that after X amount of time I have to change that opinion to a neutral or positive one.
Additionally, I think it's a little off to assume that those who don't like SOE are typing this dislike in some emotion-filled, hysterical tirade where they are yelling and screaming at the monitor as they type. The majority of it as I see it expressed is in a straight forward, frank manner. It's kind of like:
"Do you want sugar in your coffee sir?"
"No thank you."
Granted, there are some that blow up in a spectacular emotional nerdrage, but for the most part I don't believe it's the case.
Well young pup. I guess if you took this as a personal jab at you then perhaps you are one of those it was meant for. Personally I think the point Elikal was trying to make about letting go was a pretty good one. I guess understanding how people can hold a hatred for something that happened in something as insignificant as a video game is beyond me. Disappointments happen in life but a company ruining my fun in a game isnt one of the big ones.
Well, pa-pa, when you quote the response with me in it instead of a previous one that would have allowed you to make that point without my name in the highlights, what am I supposed to think, lol!
I'm sure over the course of your life there have been times where you have made the decision to not buy a particular item for whatever reason. And you don't strike me as a person short on principles so I imagine you stuck with that decision. The same premise applies here is what I'm saying.
And as for disappointments about a game company not being a big one I agree. I'm just thankful at this time in my life that I don't have any other disappointments in areas that actually mean something.
Well I you were not my intended target I was making sure i got Elikas statement in my post. You are correct, I bought a new Chevy pickup in 1991 and the piece of shit was in the shop more than on the road. Finally called GM and got some satisfaction. Last GM product ive ever owned. :)
I have no idea who Lex Luther is, but Lex Luthor is Superman's arch-nemesis.
The long and the short of it is, for many "passionate" MMO players, SOE has garnered a reputation as a company that doesn't see players as customers, but simply as revenue sources they can access with an MMORPG.
Successful gaming companies aim to create as best a product as they can, and then continue to add value to that product to their customers' interested. That formula is pretty easy, and it works.
With SOE's reputation for abandoning games that don't hit it big right away, and adding cash shops for P2P games, they have clearly chosen a different formula: get as much as you can for the least investment possible.
Like most MMO gamers, I want to see as many companies succeed as is humanly possible. But I look at this company and I just see a bunch of accountants figuring out different ways to nickel and dime players without making their games any better. This is probably because they are a subsidiary of a huge company, and gaming is not Sony's core competency.
For Blizzard*, Turbine and, heck, Jagex, gaming is all's they knows, and for that you get customer-focused products. Players need faith in the management of the game. You can gain passionate followers, but you can also gain passionate detractors. Surprisingly, it takes effort to get hard-core haters. You really need to abuse your customers' trust pretty badly. Like SOE has done.
Gaming just doesn't seem to be SOE's focus. If you put the gamers ahead of the financial returns, the revenue will eventually follow. If you do it the other way 'round, then failure is lurking not too far off.
* I know Vivendi owns Activision/ Blizzard, but Blizzard management seems to still be largely intact.
And people like you are, in my humble opinion, one of the reasons why we see such crappy games rushed to release today; after all there will be enough people that buy it anyway despite the company's trackrecord. Where i come from people grow a spine and vote with their feet; fool me once and i am likely to give you another chance, fool me twice or as in Sony's case, fool me constantly (talking about their business models here) and you will have a real hard time to catch me again as a customer.
I know gaming is supposed to be a hobby and should not be taken too seriously. But for Sony and other companies, it has been a business from day 1. And as such i will treat them as the business men they are.
I was going to use some choice 4 letter words to describe SoE but decided that it would be best to just agree with you. And most of all, your avatar speaks plainly of what I think of SoE.
And to all those who seem to love SoE, all I can say is "Ha, ha, ha, boy are you gonna learn the hard way or what."
So freaking sad though since I really wanted to play this game.
Seriously old man, do you and I need to start again with the jabs. I thought we got past that in the other thread. Go have a prune juice pa-pa.
@Elikal
Like I said, I don't go around (and feel free to check my posting history if you have doubts) proactively bashing SOE. If a thread comes up and someone asks an opinion of them I give mine. No where is it mandated that after X amount of time I have to change that opinion to a neutral or positive one.
Additionally, I think it's a little off to assume that those who don't like SOE are typing this dislike in some emotion-filled, hysterical tirade where they are yelling and screaming at the monitor as they type. The majority of it as I see it expressed is in a straight forward, frank manner. It's kind of like:
"Do you want sugar in your coffee sir?"
"No thank you."
Granted, there are some that blow up in a spectacular emotional nerdrage, but for the most part I don't believe it's the case.
Well young pup. I guess if you took this as a personal jab at you then perhaps you are one of those it was meant for. Personally I think the point Elikal was trying to make about letting go was a pretty good one. I guess understanding how people can hold a hatred for something that happened in something as insignificant as a video game is beyond me. Disappointments happen in life but a company ruining my fun in a game isnt one of the big ones.
Well, pa-pa, when you quote the response with me in it instead of a previous one that would have allowed you to make that point without my name in the highlights, what am I supposed to think, lol!
I'm sure over the course of your life there have been times where you have made the decision to not buy a particular item for whatever reason. And you don't strike me as a person short on principles so I imagine you stuck with that decision. The same premise applies here is what I'm saying.
And as for disappointments about a game company not being a big one I agree. I'm just thankful at this time in my life that I don't have any other disappointments in areas that actually mean something.
Well I you were not my intended target I was making sure i got Elikas statement in my post. You are correct, I bought a new Chevy pickup in 1991 and the piece of shit was in the shop more than on the road. Finally called GM and got some satisfaction. Last GM product ive ever owned. :)
This hits on how people feel for the most part I would guess.
Hate really has nothing to do with it. Rather it's dissatisfaction and a decision not to support SoE because of their track record with their products. Same thing as Gramps' GM situation. That's how it works as a consumer.
The rest of what you see people writing is the reason for the dissatisfaction that drove them to that point.
The innovation, most of the good stuff, that got EQ1 off the launch pad was Verant. Then SOE took over --- when it was clear it had become, for the time, a huge cash cow.
Just my 2c.
i would kiss most unrechable places of SOE people if they redo SWG on next gen engine. good example is how Mindark did entropia with CryEngine 2
Double standards much?
It's unfair for anyone to say anything negative about SOE without "backing it up", but you're free to say positive things?
Not that I've any bad customer service experience with them, but sheesh!
Sony Online Entertainment had a comeback year in 2009.
So in an industry experiencing almost 30% growth annually, SOE laid off 5% of their staff hot on the heels of the release of the much vaunted Free Realms.
Just how low had they sunk for this to qualify as a "comeback"?
They were going to have to lay off 10%? Maybe? Possibly?
Double standards much?
It's unfair for anyone to say anything negative about SOE without "backing it up", but you're free to say positive things?
Not that I've any bad customer service experience with them, but sheesh!
Well, the point is that a lot of people always seem to complain about SOE's customer service while a lot of people seem to have had no problem whatsoever.
In fact, from personal experience I would say SOE is better then Blizzard and miles ahead of Turbine and Funcom. No payment problems, payment options available for lots of countries, quick polite replies often within minutes, helpful answers. Actual activity on harassment complaints and a willingness to police their servers.
Granted, these are my experiences and they might not be shared by anyone else, but when I see Customer Services being ditched I wonder if people think that the NGE was somehow the fault of the Customer Service Reps.
Give credit were credit is due.
But so did a lot of other companies. I got the distinct feeling that the credit crisis has been a welcome excuse to shed some dead weight.
It has also become a practice to layoff devs after a launch as they are no longer needed and it is cheaper to just sack them and replace them with new blood for any future project when it happens.
Don't read to much into it. Granted, I don't think SOE is making a comeback, but that is just because they will find someway to screw up the new games. Smedley just has to weave his magic on them.
He said it first, My agreement will be on my next report. Man, what a one sided story , its ok , I have the other side covered.
Was wondering when you'd show up, lol! And I believe Teala is a she, hehe.
This pretty much sums it all up nicely.
I've read plenty about how Blizzard had not projected the amazing success they received (which of course bit them in the ass at first). But yes, they start with a good game and go from there. SOE starts out looking at the 11 million subscribers, and then goes about trying to find out how they get there with the least amount of effort. And fails every time.
So warning fellow consumers is wrong how? This is part of what makes a free market free. You don't believe in this system? You believe people with negative opinions about a company/product/service protecting their fellow consumers by voicing those opinions should not be allowed to express them? You believe competition between corporations is bad, and that companies should be protected from having to deliver what they advertise?
Interesting.
SOE is the only part of anything Sony I happen to like. That said I really like the station pass idea although i agree most of the games are sub-par. I like EQ2 a lot and it works for me because I am a casual player. There are so many things to do in that game it keeps me busy and keeps me from maxing my toon so I do not have to quit like with WOW and other MMO's. I can see if you are a hardcore fan that you would say the games SOE has are not interesting but casual players i think get along just fine. Just my opinion. Peace and Happy New Year.
Well, the point is that a lot of people always seem to complain about SOE's customer service while a lot of people seem to have had no problem whatsoever.
In fact, from personal experience I would say SOE is better then Blizzard and miles ahead of Turbine and Funcom. No payment problems, payment options available for lots of countries, quick polite replies often within minutes, helpful answers. Actual activity on harassment complaints and a willingness to police their servers.
Granted, these are my experiences and they might not be shared by anyone else, but when I see Customer Services being ditched I wonder if people think that the NGE was somehow the fault of the Customer Service Reps.
Give credit were credit is due.
At the SOE fan faire this year there was a panel where representatives from all games and departments gave little presentations about the state of their project.
The head of customer service took the stage early in the presentation and told the crowd that soe was canceling their practice of outsourcing their customer service and was bringing it all in house. The cheering from the crowd was absolutely the loudest and most universal cheer of the entire panel.
People do not cheer when something good is canceled. They cheer when something bad is canceled. Keep in mind this was a room filled with soes biggest supporters.
That alone speaks volumes about how the service is without anyone here having to relate a single story.
So warning fellow consumers is wrong how? This is part of what makes a free market free. You don't believe in this system? You believe people with negative opinions about a company/product/service protecting their fellow consumers by voicing those opinions should not be allowed to express them? You believe competition between corporations is bad, and that companies should be protected from having to deliver what they advertise?
Interesting.
I agree. This is why 'Reputation' is so important. This is why word of mouth marketing has such an impact in the gaming world. Those that defend $OE find it easier to attack those dissatisfied with the company than actually give reasons why $OE should be worthy of praise. There certainly has been no shortage of examples outlining $OE failures.
So warning fellow consumers is wrong how? This is part of what makes a free market free. You don't believe in this system? You believe people with negative opinions about a company/product/service protecting their fellow consumers by voicing those opinions should not be allowed to express them? You believe competition between corporations is bad, and that companies should be protected from having to deliver what they advertise?
Interesting.
One person makes a post about events and actions of a company.
Another person makes a counter post, but instead of challenging the points made they focus on the person making the points.
Occasionally they will reference the NGE as if that is the only bad thing soe has ever done to upset anyone and use that to dismiss any other argument made.
That is just what most people who enjoy soe games do. They debate the person and not the persons arguments.
After all these years... Is that supposed to imply that something has changed with soe and they have stopped doing things that anger large portions of their playerbase? As if they have changed how they operate and people should give them another chance?
I've never felt the answer to an issue is to tell people to shut and ignore valid issues that are relevant and current. If a company has a long and clear history of not listening to their customers and taking actions that drive them away, I don't think their next game will make those issues go away. Odds are that it will just create a new group of people complaining about the same issues, but in a different game.
Well, the point is that a lot of people always seem to complain about SOE's customer service while a lot of people seem to have had no problem whatsoever.
In fact, from personal experience I would say SOE is better then Blizzard and miles ahead of Turbine and Funcom. No payment problems, payment options available for lots of countries, quick polite replies often within minutes, helpful answers. Actual activity on harassment complaints and a willingness to police their servers.
Granted, these are my experiences and they might not be shared by anyone else, but when I see Customer Services being ditched I wonder if people think that the NGE was somehow the fault of the Customer Service Reps.
Give credit were credit is due.
Well...
I haven't played an SOE product since SWG and did dabble in PotBS which SOE did not make but only produced. I can say that in SWG I had very long waits on GM responses. More than in WoW.
My first issue was an in-game issue that wasn't resolved until the next day when I was offline.
I've also had some billing issues with them.
Admittedly I quit SWG before the NGE(the pre-NGE crap wasnt very creative), but when I went back to the game I found my toon and everything I owned was totally worthless. Not to mention the inflation got so out of hand that my millions were also pocket change to a newbie.
The funny thing is, both of us are providing anecdotal evidence to this arguement and neither are of much value. The key is that the general consensus is that the customer service is bad.
I, personally, wont be giving SOE my money very easily. I have no interest in DCUO and The Agency is too quiet to grab my interest. I'd rather just go with Global Agenda for the pseudo-spy MMOFPS.
This > than actual article. 100% more truth and a ton less guesstimation and generalizations. Just need to add Vanguard's recent turn of events and what you have is enough material to post a bevy of interesting articles that help keep the industry from following the "self proclaimed leader of mmos".
Then again, I find it very hard to believe the writer missed the slew of layoffs, pushbacks, cancellations and misdealings by SOE that MMORPG did post this year. 2009 was far from a new start and far less of a foundation to build 2010's future upon.
And people like you are, in my humble opinion, one of the reasons why we see such crappy games rushed to release today; after all there will be enough people that buy it anyway despite the company's trackrecord. Where i come from people grow a spine and vote with their feet; fool me once and i am likely to give you another chance, fool me twice or as in Sony's case, fool me constantly (talking about their business models here) and you will have a real hard time to catch me again as a customer.
I know gaming is supposed to be a hobby and should not be taken too seriously. But for Sony and other companies, it has been a business from day 1. And as such i will treat them as the business men they are.
GREAT POST. i agree people who continue to overlook shoddy products and unacceptable business practices lead to more garbage dumped on the market.
and lets remember that bad reputations are earned...not given.
Wish SOE will just close down all other mmo they have and just focus on EQ2 and VG.
Yes, i'm selfish...
There is a lot to be said to spreading yourself too thin. Too many of one thing, then none receive the attention needed.
Horseshit. Brad McQuaid had his head so far up his poppy land ass to steer that game. It failed because of him. I'm a firm believer that EQ was as successful as it was because of other less idolized and substance abusing people.
Horseshit. Brad McQuaid had his head so far up his poppy land ass to steer that game. It failed because of him. I'm a firm believer that EQ was as successful as it was because of other less idolized and substance abusing people.
I think it is painfully obvious that Brad (or any of the other mmo industry legends) cannot be given full control over their own project or company. Creative people need someone else in charge who can tell them no to certain things and keep the project on course. Just like it is painfully obvious that you cannot put someone who is obsessed with revenue models in charge of making games.
There needs to be a relationship between the two to make a great game and get it done right, which is why EQ struck pay dirt.
Just as Brad ruined his game by being to passionate about the game and ignoring the business, soe is ruining their games by being passionate about nothing other than revenue models and treating games as nothing more than a vehicle to accessing your wallet. There is a reason that soe hemorrhages creative talent like no one else.
Neither approach will produce a winner.
I think it is painfully obvious that Brad (or any of the other mmo industry legends) cannot be given full control over their own project or company. Creative people need someone else in charge who can tell them no to certain things and keep the project on course. Just like it is painfully obvious that you cannot put someone who is obsessed with revenue models in charge of making games.
There needs to be a relationship between the two to make a great game and get it done right, which is why EQ struck pay dirt.
Just as Brad ruined his game by being to passionate about the game and ignoring the business, soe is ruining their games by being passionate about nothing other than revenue models and treating games as nothing more than a vehicle to accessing your wallet. There is a reason that soe hemorrhages creative talent like no one else.
Neither approach will produce a winner.
Very well put, I agree with that assessment. Maybe Brad is a visionary (I so want to put a hallucinogenic joke in here), but VG never showed it. Why? who knows, but it was his baby and he ran the show so he gets the rubber chicken award.
I think a lot of us really wanted that MMO to succeed. I did, but the first look at beta I had was a pragmatic one. The game wasn't going to make it.
SOE really puts it's cash foot forward, but so does Blizzard. It's business. Read the forums for each game and you see just as much bitching as the other game. Blizzard rolls content out so slow they just milk subscribers.
SOE subs (myself included) pay for the nerf bat and game changes and content updates and changes while Blizzard subs pay to wait for all of that goodness.
6 of one half dozen of another... I'm either to old or to jaded to get wound up over it.
I'm quite surprised by the diehard reactionary posts here. *chuckles* Yes there were several wrong decisions in the past and there will be in the future, that is just being a human and the people at the company change as well as the times and what the market asks for.
Personally I'm sad about what happened to VG but it was so unfinished and clunky - it was hard to get this into a polished state EVER in my opinion and just throwing more money at it doesn't mean the people working there can than do the trick. I hope it is recovering, the diplomacy thing was a great idea, the seamless world and classes were nice too. That whole things debacle though wasn't about "SOE" that was about some people at Sigil (!), design leads, programmers, artists, you name it. There is no such thing like "THE SOE". It is a huge company, for the sake of god people, stop being so black and white thinkers. *shakes head*
EQ2 for my playstyle was a real turn around and comeback in 2009. I've a job, family and private life and it is the freaking first MMO in 10 years of playing I buy addons for because I reach the level cap ... Simple truth for those bitter hardcore gamer complaining about the level speed too high: the majority of player is not making it in a reasonable time in the games YOU want so they never buy addons but leave the game as they are bored to death with the grind that going through you consider the hallmark of achievement. And that hurts every company.
I still think that VG can become a valuable piece of the SOE portfolio. EQ2 now turned into a way more family/casual friendly game while VG has a good hardcore RAID system from what I read and the diplomacy-lore-system and no zones. It could turn into something like Eve for fantasy MMO's if they managed to make it more sandbox, expand the land lord and tax system. BUT ... such a game needs years to grow a auditory, establish politics and such. And I'm not sure anyone at SOE is willing for such a long term investment or aiming a game at this auditory. So under the current conditions VG won't survive it they don't manage to attract more new player and make it less grindy, few players are willing to go through grind, it is as plain as that. Slowly the understanding makes it into MMO's too that games are for fun and the game should be fun while playing it and not while working (!) for the end content. I've even shut off the level XP in EQ2 at level 70 now to drain it into achievement points - unbelievable for me some month ago when I was still trying to finally (please!) get some new stuff to do by achieving a level. Now I play EQ2 for fun and leveling has become more a side effect. That is awesome and explains the success of FR too in my eyes. And actually the server are full, just login and go to snow ... whatever the english name is. I'm just amazed that there is no lag with so many players there. And they still have the same revenue modell (free content and membership content), just added more classes and you can now play all of them for free but not use some items. Where on earth does that tell anything about being successful or not? I see so many people running around with pets you can only buy ... I've my doubts it doesn't make money.
Conclusion: It is usual for a MMO company to make new games to earn from the fresh-hype and sales and get new money from investors. That doesn't mean at all the old games are dying. Quite contrary as far as I know most old games (more than 3-4 years at the market) are often profitable since they have become very deep and rich and polished compared to new games and the hardware and traffic costs are cheaper today than it was back at release. Basically the monthly fees rise but the costs drop. But a company with stock shares is forced to grow and not just sustain its income level. Thus they need to make new ones, useless economic laws but reality.
the whole debacle with vanguard happened because it is the direct competition of eq2 and the company who was making VG ran out of money They saw an opening to own the competition. they bought it to bury it and they effectively did so, but not til AFTER they tried all they could to keep the game floating. its not SOE's fault that people didnt stick it out and continue to play the game. even now with it being, imo, the best PVE/crafting game out there, people will not play it. They made the trainee island to help bring people in and it did not help. they released new content and raised the lvl cap, it did not bring new people in or old players back. what do you do to a sinking ship? leave your slaves on it and bail the f' out on your life raft. the game got as much attention and money it could get before SOE decided it was a bad investment to put anything else into it.
peoples problem with the swg: nge, yeah it sucked extremely bad and they should have left some servers with the old way of play, but as a business decision it was made to increase the profit. it may have been a bad decision but its what they, as a multi-million dollar company, decided to do. These companies are not charities. they need to make profit to continue to live and will make decisions based on the highest profit margin they can make.
some people were also upset about the item malls being put into games like EQ and EQ2. Well, eq is a 10 year old game with a dedicated community. you think they are going to spend RL money on fluff items? you bet your ass they will if they have played the game for so long and that = more profit to them.
Whoever was complaining about the station pass; its one of the best deals in MMO gaming to date. 30 bucks a month to play ANY of SOE's mmo titles is a ridiculously good deal. PoTBS, VG, EQ, EQ2 are all great games even with the small population. they should merge more servers which would cut down on the costs and increase the population on servers which may bring more people in. think of when DCU and The Agency get released (if they keep it the way it is) 30$ to play any of the games under their label.... its amazing.
So all of you SOE haters out there, you need to get your facts straight. The only game they really ruined was SWG, get over it. companies and people make mistakes. hell look at our american government, its one GIANT mistake. Get over it.
I agree that back than when SOE bought VG it was a direct competition. But in my opinion games auditories change with what you offer to them, what you focus on - and I think in EQ2 that has become more casually oriented people with a busy real life while VG has pretty much driven everyone away from that crowd due to the insane grinds necessary to level up, do diplomacy games, craft, get race mounts or whatever there is in content. You don't get those people back or starting by adding a trial island and raising the level cap. Those who stay are hardcore gamers or nostalgic people which cling to their guild - a stabilizing and fragile factore at the same time. Now look what Silius decided to do: add more Raid content, make the high level hard core player happy, make them stay. Unfortunatelly although those are not interested in EQ2 anymore and too spoiled by graphics and stuff for EQ they are the ones which go through content fastest. With a small development staff this is a problem and once you can't keep up anymore and have to scrape this highend content ... very bad crisis.
So in my opinion VG has a chance in one of two cases: focus hard (hard!) with more money on it as a RAID game, decrease the grind to reach the RAID content faster to increase attraction for other players, less a levelling game but a strictly item centric game with almost solely Raid content. In this case it might be relatively fast to get it stabilized but maybe not long term. The other option: focus on the community/lore/sandbox like systems and expand those to become something similar to EVE. Diplomacy needs in this case to be expanded a lot and a player-versus-player game too, people need to be able to claim land, ressource node spawn points, the crafting system must be kept and expanded, there needs to be a way to exchange ingame currency into real money and vice versa to give an appeal for entrepeneurs to build structures and thus content. Nobody invests into an economy that might fold the next day or is not good anything. But for this VG would need a long term strategy as it needs time to attract people who truly build things (in community terms) as most people come and fade and that is it. And the engine needs to be polished a lot so people building something in the game are not disturbed by bugs and lag and such. If something costs real money you can get into trouble very fast if technical problems arise. Still I believe that VG offers a useful engine with a unique huge empty world that to explore and pioneer in can attract people if they truly are allowed to make it their own. SOE could never afford to fill the world of VG with content fast enough to attract people to keep playing. The only chance apart from Raids (which focus people on a few places) thus in my opinion is to financially attract players to provide content themself.
I wish SoE could fix VG. Add more soloable quests and make them easier to find,event system,remake some quests and areas,another graphic so you dont need a monster computer to use the best out of it,balance all classes,a story to follow (Like primary quests in GW or like the chapter in lord of the rigns online) and a lot of other things. Vanguard need to add so much or they wont get more players,but that will take to long and other games will come out and probably will they already have what VG has and more.
or they could give VG to me. :) just PM me SoE.
How about this for a fact? The very first action soe took in their "investment" of Vanguard was to remove the most talented programmers and move them to new projects at soe. I don't know what you think is everything in their power, but the very first action by soe showed they were more concerned with everything other than vanguard.
Perhaps you bought the dog and pony show they put on about saving this game, but just looking at the minimal effort shows they didn't invest in the game. Years have past since the screw ups of Sigil and at some point soe has to take ownership of not correcting the course of vanguard. As many have said this is a great game, so why hasn't soe turned it around yet?
Soe gave up on this game long before they owned it.
So far soe has been incapable of turning around "great" games. Just like they have not turned around SWG, EQ2, Planetside, Matrix, Free Realms, EQOA, etc. They have however had a series of what you call "mistakes" that have caused them to go from the undisputed leader in the industry to a company that has a bloated and declining portfolio of dying games.
Despite the bank and forth in this thread I still stand by my original statement. As a consumer we should all be aware of the saying that goes, "those that don't learn from history are destined to repeat it." Yes, there have been a rash of very poor MMO's released over the last year. Does that trend absolve any MMO company from a history of poorly managing the MMO's that are under them? I personally don't think so. I played SWG and loved the game and was very disappointed with the direction the game took. What was more disconcerting to me was not that changes came, but that changes came despite a vocal majority of players asking that the game not change in the way that it did. Ah well, games change, times change etc.
I then went on to give EQ2 a try. I'm not a grudge holder in the sense that 1 mistake disqualifies me from trying another product from a company that I may not have had a great experience with. For anyone that played EQ2 on the day it launched I think it would be very hard to make the case that the game was "great" at release. That's a laughable statement at best. EQ2 has really only hit it's stride through 2008 and 2009. Kudos to SOE for improving the game but it came long after I got tired of "sticking with it".
I then thought about giving Vanguard a try since it seemed like a lot of the things the game said it had would be things I'd enjoy. Vanguard was trash, ran very poorly, and was a complete and utter mess even after SOE took it over. They did very little to listen to the community regarding fixes and they damn sure didn't do anything in a timely fashion.
3 poor experiences with 3 different products developed by the same company. Yes, I have watched some of the other games they have developed and I'm telling you that in my personal opinion the issues I have with SOE seem to cross over to most if not all of the games they produce. I for one have no interest in supporting MMO companies who continue to produce shoddy, broken MMO's and then repeat the same mistakes over and over again. Nothing is going to change in this industry until we the consumer demand better. The only way that we have any real voice in this market is by choosing to spend our money wisely. As such I do not feel that DCUO is going to be a product I will be purchasing. For those that do decide to spend their money on the game, good for you. You spoke with your money that you're willing to support SOE as a developer. I just really don't want to hear any bitching if they burn you the way they have repeatedly burned the players who chose to spend their money with SOE in the past. /rant off
yea, those people are lucky they did not get completely canned when the company/project got bought out. in the business world whenever a company gets taken over or bought out pretty much everyone gets the axe and replaced with in house people. they never wanted for vanguard to succeed as it came out the same time as EQ2 which was going to be their next big thing. they wanted the game to recoop the money they spent and drawn some profit from it with little/no effort. they moved all the best programmers (who were lucky to still have jobs) to what they invested time and money into so that they could make it better than VG. Like i said, they bought the game to bury it.
It was playable at launch. it did have issues like every game does, they just did what they wanted to with slow fixes to try to push people to EQ2. why wouldnt a company be concerned with things that they are making in house rather than a shoddy game that they bought and had to try to fix/release as quick as possible? hell they probably recooped all of their money spent to aquire the game on box sales and then they put together a team to try to keep it playable but not surpass EQ2. job done.
as for the other games you mentioned, yea like i said, swg was a mistake. they tried to mainstream it so that they would attract more people to the game. they failed. but guess what? people still play it, it still draws income, it isnt going anywhere soon. its in the same boat as UO, they made a huge game changing addition with tram, a lot of people did not like it. 12 years later its is still going strong. it just released a huge expansion. was tram a mistake? yes. are they still making a ton of money off UO? hell yes because it costs them nearly nothing to keep the servers running and a skeleton dev team. the fact that its been running for 12 years is enough said. SWG is the same.
never played planetside/matrix/EQOA or even heard about it that much, was not interested in it so i assume they were niche games that, like most niche games, crash and burn. at least they as a AAA company tried to appease smaller clusters even though they failed.
as for free realms, it is one of the most popular games out there. they are doing what they want with it, making money, attracting young people to mmo's. its a huge success.
games that run for years and years and keep people playing them, even if its small population, are pure win. you may not like it, but the fact that those games have been running for 5+ years means that people are still playing them.
its not the company but the people who let games die. you stop paying to play them, the dev crews go away and the eventual life support of money is taken away to let it die in peace.
Look at eve online. it was the dictionary definition of pure shit when it was released. seriously, have you ever seen screen shots, heard from people who started playing it at release? it was terrible. but people kept paying, and kept paying, and kept paying, and today its a huge success with multiple expansions and a supposed player base of 300k subscriptions. the players kept that game alive and made it a success. if they hadn't the game would have failed (like VG is doing, like matrix did) and CCP would be no more.
edit:
and to the above poster, games released around the time that EQ2, vanguard were released were all plagued with problems and ran just about as good as crap down the back of your leg. anyone remember WoW release? didnt we get an extre free month of play for how abosolutely terrible it was? but people stuck with it making it the largest populated, most popular game ever.
don t know about vanguard !but today i went to get newest avail everquest !the clerk told me we received some when they lunched their last (shadow odyssey if i recall)the clerk said i recieved on a few of them they were sold before they ever reached the store.clerk never heard of everquest after !i asked him ,ok then could i order some and some time card?
clerk check ontheir ebgame thingy!say to me sorry cant order them !im like ?"/%/$?they just released new content !
hes like couldnt say since we cant have em! i was so baffled ,the clerk told me everything everquest is sold before it ever reach
the store,if it ever does.i told him they release new dvd everquest soon you think i can get it!
he say i would be very surprised.soe doesnt send everquest anymore.im like but you sold everthing before it ever reached the store.clerk say:try explaining that to soe.
i was completetly speachless!
Vanguard was already shot down because of its crappy release.
SWG was ruined with the NGE experience. On the other hand, current SWG is very different from SWG just after NGE. With a skillbased system, it would be way better then preNGE even. Its definately one of the most feature rich MMORPG's out there. Not that it matters, because the MMO community doesnt lose a grudge. The same community also tends to look at the past with rosecoloured glasses. Any sane person would understand that preCU SWG would never have many subs nowadays.
The upside is that all other companies can look at SOE to learn what not to do.
Oh, on a sidenote. STO will be like AION. Lots of hype, lots of disappointment. STO will attract a lot of players at launch just because of the ip, but those players will discover soon enough that its really lacking in variety of content.
1) EQ2 came out 3 years before vanguard, but you are correct SOE did not want VG to take subscribers from EQ2.
Also it doesn't matter how lucky those people were to have jobs as it has not relevance to how little effort soe was putting into "saving" vanguard.
2) Correct. The second thing soe did was give current VG players free time and discounts to join EQ2 (maybe their other games, but I don't recall). It was obvious that soe was trying to draw players away from vanguard to maximize their profits.
3) SWG wasn't a mistake as soe knew that they were pushing their current players out the door. That was intentional and history cannot be revised to call that a mistake. If their plan had worked, they would never call it a mistake and would happily push more customers out the door to get a chunk of blizzards pie. Conclusion is that soe has no issues what so ever driving their players away if they think there is profit to be made by doing so. The mistake was that their plan didn't work out in their favor. Any of the times they have tried.
4) Perhaps you should do a little more research on the rest of soe titles before you make claims that soe has not ruined any of their games aside from star wars? Just a thought.
5) Free realms doesn't even have 1 full server friend and 1,000 online players would clog a server up due to the incredibly small size of the game world. Before you go reading a press release by soe about how huge a success it is, you should do a little homework. Why do you think soe had to change the game from free to play to a pure subscription +RMT revenue model? Successful games don't have to make drastic changes like that. How many of the over 5 million players have to NOT play the game in order for it to not have at least 1 full server? Think about that.
6) If you cut enough support and development any game can run for years. Ask the players of those undead mmo if they are happy to pay the same fees for a stillborn game with no hope of growing when compared to other mmos on the market that get expansions and constant updates. Is it any wonder why more people don't pay for the luxury of a dead mmo.
7) That was something like 7 years ago and ccp (from what I can tell) listens to their players? People no longer need to pay for the hope that a shit game might someday get better. There is no need for that in todays market and people should not be expected to pay for post release development of a game for the honor of it MAYBE getting fixed and being fun. This is the exact mentality that soe used to ruin EQ2. They rushed it out the door unfinished just to beat blizzard to market and look how that worked out for soe. They spent the better half of the games life revamping and redesigning the majority of the game. That is why it sucks.
. they never wanted for vanguard to succeed as it came out the same time as EQ2 which was going to be their next big thing.
Really? I seem to recall Vanguard launching (pay for beta) around the time of EQ2's fourth expansion Echoes of Faydwer.
Really? I seem to recall Vanguard launching (pay for beta) around the time of EQ2's fourth expansion Echoes of Faydwer.
EQ2 released in nov 2004.
Vanguard released Jan 2007.
Really? I seem to recall Vanguard launching (pay for beta) around the time of EQ2's fourth expansion Echoes of Faydwer.
EQ2 released in nov 2004.
Vanguard released Jan 2007.
pwned!
yes it does seem to make that particular argument fall apart slightly doesnt it. sometimes the degree of conspiracy theories bandied about over SOE do approach the tinfoil hat levels of saturation, i dont particularly believe that SOE is really the empire of evil, but, do have to admit that their current lineout is a tad on the mediocre side, for whatever reason, conspiracies or no..
SOE could release the Messiah game that revolutionizes the whole genre tomorrow, but I won't be impressed until they straighten out the mess they've already got.
EQ2 released in nov 2004.
Vanguard released Jan 2007.
pwned!
yes it does seem to make that particular argument fall apart slightly doesnt it. sometimes the degree of conspiracy theories bandied about over SOE do approach the tinfoil hat levels of saturation, i dont particularly believe that SOE is really the empire of evil, but, do have to admit that their current lineout is a tad on the mediocre side, for whatever reason, conspiracies or no..
Well there is a lot of misinformation on this site about a number of games and a lot of people do not have their facts straight. Even though their hearts are in the right place.
As for SOE, I don't think they are some evil empire plotting to ruin the world. I do think they are completely mismanaged by a group of people who have no desire or passion about making games and are only interested in getting their hands on their customers wallets. Their level which they disregard and lack any understanding of their customers has caused their brand name immeasurable harm and is the prime reason their games are shit and/or underperform.
Some will call it conspiracy and some just call it unethical business practice, but it is easy to show that soe has no problem hiding the truth or outright lying to their players and they are more than willing to make changes they fully understand will cause people to leave their games if they think it will increase their revenue short term.
I have played Vanguard and first of all I don't think it is better then EQ2 nor did they come at the same time and there is at least a 3 or 4 year difference. SOE is not great but i think they should focus on less MMO projects at one time. 2008-2009 was just horrible for the MMO genre in general i think. Things will get better I am sure. Happy New year.
Its Tough to contradict the truth.
Come on Garret this is such a trash piece, it does not become you. Comeback year? Unless you posted that with a healthy dose of sarcasm you are living in a fantasy world.
Previous posts lay out all the travails SOE had this year. As long as Smedley is at the helm SOE is going nowhere. The people in this industry with any talent can't stand him. With this industry turning around this year SOE will lose more talent if they have any left.
SOE is just a shell of what it once was with little chance of returning to anything near what it was.
It is the most pathetic company in this genre and will continue to remain so.
Regarding The Agency talent. It's doubtful it will ever be released.
Chad Barry was Sr. Technical Architect, now at the Amazing Society
Hal Milton was Lead Designer now at Griptonite games
Paul Ehreth was game designer now at Microsoft
Corey Dangel was art director, now founder Detonator Games.
Heather Sowards was producer at soe, now at Edge of Reality,
Andy Seavy was game designer at soe, now at loose cannon studios.
Sherry Floyd now art development director at monolith.
Most of these within the last 9 months. Bad stuff is happening in this shop or this was cleanup to fix bad stuff.
Where is the deluge of infomation about DCUO? There's nothing out there and lately they're just releasing snapshots of various character models of obscure characters like Bizarro. Was anyone's purchase really teetering on wether or not they nailed the Bizarro model?
Considering the game centers around players taking the part of sidekicks of major heroes, it might.
Considering the game centers around players taking the part of sidekicks of major heroes, it might.
You consider Bizarro a major hero? Either way my question still stands - where's all the DCUO info hiding?
SOE>>Blizzard.